[11:03] Abraham Jacobson (abrahamjacobs2): We have three judges, Lady Myriam, Kati and Kar. the prize will be 5000 L to the winner . Topic Resolved: That, in accordance with Gor’s male-dominant societal structure, women shall not be permitted to hold positions of authority such as Magistrate or Head of Caste within our caste.
[11:03] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino) is online.
[11:04] Abraham Jacobson (abrahamjacobs2): each of you take a side of the podium and tell us when you are yeady
[11:04] Turjann entered chat range (6.67 m).
[11:04] Abraham Jacobson (abrahamjacobs2): Fogaban will begin first
[11:05] Alyssa Himura Boa (finola.mayo) entered chat range (4.54 m).
[11:05] Tyan Cabot (tyancabot) entered chat range (13.07 m).
[11:05] Fogaban: Greetings every, our Host and the Lady Forstander
[11:05] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino) "I'm ready. First its a blessing to see you all. I've not been out of the Sardar since the last fair. My son brought me out. Its good to see you all here still standing, and shining in your colors." She looks to Fogoban.
[11:06] Fogaban: To begin ..........
[11:06] Fogaban: I must preface this debate by saying that I mostly agree with the esteemed Lady’s position.
However, for the sake of this gathering, the impact on cultural possibilities and just for the fun of it, I have decided to participate.
[11:06] Carlosliraa entered chat range (4.05 m).
[11:06] Anatisti Foulsbane entered chat range (13.07 m).
[11:06] Fogaban: To say "women SHALL NOT be permitted to hold positions of authority such as Magistrate or Head of Caste" is a very arbitrary and definitive statement.
[11:07] Fogaban: I have always cautioned against such blanket statements.
However . . . one never knows.
[11:07] Fogaban: To first establish that there are, in fact, women Scribes . . .
[11:07] Fogaban: Of course there are, you say? Well, there ARE women in the Caste of Warriors but there are no women Warriors.
[11:07] Miray Foulsbane (michellesia) entered chat range (8.06 m).
[11:07] Ruqiya Hiɱʋɾɑ Bσɑ Hɑɗes (pitu.pearl) entered chat range (5.20 m).
[11:07] Fogaban: So, are there women Scribes? We have this reference:
This hairdo here, on Crystal, with the bun in the back, is favored by many free women of the scribes.
Kajira of Gor Book 19 Page 292
[11:08] Fogaban: And this one:
"Disgusting! Disgusting!" cried the free woman, one veiled and wearing the robes of the scribes, standing in the audience. "Pull down your skirt, you slave, you brazen hussy!"
Players of Gor Book 20 Page 121
[11:08] Fogaban: So, indeed, there are women Scribes.
What is to be established is, to what degree are women involved in "caste work".
[11:08] Fogaban: I now yield to the Lady ......
[11:08] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow): wel some of the topics and or discusions are fun
[11:09] zCS # [Mod] Armand Wayfarer switched from [Away] to [RP].
[11:09] Arealius (arealius.barbosa) is online.
[11:10] Tuuli Himura Boa (solea.celestia) entered chat range (7.13 m).
[11:10] Dawn Lane (dawnna.lane) is online.
[11:11] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino) takes a deep breath, "Fogaban, just let me know when I can bite."
[11:12] Fogaban: My apologies, Lady. Yes, please ........ bite *smiles*
[11:12] Roshan Himura Boa (aarondaegal) entered chat range (4.91 m).
[11:12] ƈɨʟɨӼ Ӽʊռ (xunfu) grins
[11:12] Xunfu fr>en grin
[11:12] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino) shakes her head, "no apologies needed. I'm honored by the weight on your shoulders and I want to thank you for everything you've done for Gor. I'd like to begin with my opening statement if that's well with you?"
[11:13] Dawn Lane (dawnna.lane) is offline.
[11:13] Sʏᴀɴ ʜɪᴍᴜʀᴀ ʙᴏᴀ (syan.spicy) entered chat range (7.35 m).
[11:13] Arealius (arealius.barbosa) is offline.
[11:13] Fogaban: *tips his head*
[11:13] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino) inclines hers
[11:15] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): Esteemed Forgaban, noble citizens, and worthy opponents—thank you for granting me the floor this day.
We convene to debate not merely protocol, but principle: whether, under the established male-dominant structure of Gor, a free woman might justly—or at least pragmatically—assume positions of authority such as Magistrate, Head of Caste, Tatrix, or Ubara, when the male alternatives are absent, inactive, or unfit.
I begin with a premise grounded in both lore and logic: leadership is not a birthright of gender, but a burden of competence. In the vast sweep of Gorean history, power has rested in hands able to wield it—not merely in those born to it. To deny authority to a capable free woman, merely because of her sex, is to deprive a sim of stability, governance, and continuity.
[11:16] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): John Norman’s texts do stress the primacy of male mastery and male rule—this is not a fiction one lightly disputes. Yet even within his works, there are glimmers of balanced function: scribes, ambassadors, advisors, and women of influence weave the threads of administration behind the scenes.
For example, though not overtly ruling in many cities, free women sometimes influence or counsel through the pen, the scroll, the voice of diplomacy. In Tarnsman of Gor, we see women who petition, who act, who affect outcomes—even if not always in open office.
[11:17] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): It is not her sex that makes a woman unfit to rule—it is only absence, ignorance, lethargy, or lack of skill that disqualifies. If a man sits as Magistrate but never attends his duties, never adjudicates, never leads, then the city suffers. In such a void, I say, the mantle of office should pass to the competent, regardless of gender—so long as she remains properly subject to overarching male authority in matters of dominance.
In the case of Tatrix in Corcyrus, a city that has traditionally looked to martial strength and political cunning, a woman may not casually assume the lion’s share—yet if her character, presence, decisiveness, knowledge, and loyalty are proven, she may maintain the order until the city’s warrior caste again produces a capable male. The same for Ubara: the office of Ubara is martial, symbolic, and inspiring. But if the male Ubara is absent, imprisoned, unwilling, or incompetent, then a free woman functioning as an acting Ubara may serve better than a vacuum of leadership.
[11:18] Vougan (vougankar) is online.
[11:18] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): In short: the sim’s welfare must temper rigid dogma. To hold power one must earn it—not simply receive it by anatomical accident. If a man is physically present, able, and committed, he should rightfully hold the role. But if he is gone, idle, or unwilling, a free woman of proven capability should, in my view, be empowered to step in, under the structures of Gor, to keep governance alive rather than let the domain shrivel.
I await my noble opponent’s arguments — and trust our debate will sharpen our understanding of both the ideal and the possible in Gorean society.
[11:21] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): I have several quotes: “A Gorean slave girl in the presence of a free man or woman always kneels, unless excused from doing so.”
— Captive of Gor (cited in LibQuotes)
Lib Quotes
This is a clean, short rule-of-society quote. It doesn’t directly address free women in power, but it underscores Norman’s conception of hierarchical behavior in social settings.
[11:22] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): “No man who has seen a woman in Pleasure Silk, or watched her dance, or heard the sound of a belled ankle or watched a woman's hair, unbound, fall to her waist can long live without the possession of such a delicious creature.”
— Outlaw of Gor
Goodreads
Very sensual; more about attraction and objectification. Useful if you want to show how Norman often frames women in terms of aesthetic and sensual roles, rather than political authority.
[11:22] Violet Thiessam (ayiranayo) is offline.
[11:23] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): My stance on the matter was that I was supposed to be opposed. But how can I do such a thing, when I've held positions of power including High Magistrate, Magistrate and Head of Caste, High Scribe, and there are free women here who have as well. I would be denying us.
[11:24] Abraham Jacobson (abrahamjacobs2): Fogaban's turn
[11:24] Anon Haven entered chat range (13.08 m).
[11:25] Marcas MacNeill (marcasmacneill) entered chat range (15.32 m).
[11:25] Abraham Jacobson (abrahamjacobs2): Remember, 250 work replies
[11:25] MonaElaisa entered chat range (15.37 m).
[11:25] Arealius (arealius.barbosa) is online.
[11:26] Fogaban: *to the Judges and audience ...* There has been a mixup on my part. I was under the impression that I was taking the "side" that women SHOULD be allowed positions of authority. In other words the same "side" as the Lady. And thus I have not prepared a basis for rebuttal
[11:26] zCS # [Mod] Anon Haven switched from [OOC] to [RP].
[11:26] zCS # [Mod] MarcasMacNeill Resident switched from [Combat] to [OOC].
[11:27] Alyssa Himura Boa (finola.mayo): Well, that is excellent, we are all agreed on this
[11:27] Hermes (prinzensaft): oh no!
[11:27] zCS # [Mod] MonaElaisa Resident switched from [OOC] to [RP].
[11:28] Hermes (prinzensaft): ok let's go do astronomy then!
[11:28] Kati Evans: I want to hear what Fogaban had to say.
[11:28] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): I thought he would be opposed too and I would come in defending.
[11:28] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): If we do however, play by the books completely, we all of its brutality, then we wouldn't even be here right now but locked up in a house, in a cage, chained to a bed, or stuck on a building without permission from a free man who might be flying a tarn, or stitching up a dying man, or writing his fiftieth tome.
[11:28] Abraham Jacobson (abrahamjacobs2): Agreed
[11:28] Fogaban: To be honest, I cannot come up with a valid reason from the books where the overall theme precludes a woman holding a position of authority (outside the Caste of Warriors)
[11:28] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): I think we both agree free women can hold office if they are fit for it, not just for favoritism, familial ties or sim ownership?
[11:28] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): being the owner of the sim doesn't mean you need to be Ubara
[11:28] Rofla entered chat range (8.28 m).
[11:29] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): it is easier to hand power than to have all of it
[11:29] Turjann smiles, nodding
[11:30] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow) would say it depends wither you conform to the old ways, or the current sl gor ways; a true Gorean obviously would say, its a mens worl a women free or slave may not take what is desired from men, this thus be caste, duties or job, or possession. In current lands that would not fly and lead to an uprise soon after; but book wise is what it is, the only authority there is a men questioning a other man.
[11:30] Fogaban: Follow along with me as I present what I was going to say ..........
[11:30] Fogaban: The women of a given caste, it should be noted, OFTEN DO NOT (but not never) engage in caste work. For example, a woman in the Metalworkers does not, COMMONLY, (perhaps it is uncommon, but still conceivable) work at the forge, nor is a woman of the Builders LIKELY (yes, it would be unlikely, however still possible) to be found supervising the construction of fortifications.
Fighting Slave of Gor Book 14 Page 209
A notable exception to the generalization that women of a given caste NORMALLY DO NOT (but could) engage in caste work is the caste of Physicians, whose women are commonly trained, as are the boys, in the practice of medicine.
Fighting Slave of Gor Book 14 Page 210
If the Caste of Scribes were also an excellent example, this would have been the perfect place to point that out.
Instead of proof there are no female Magistrates of Heads of Caste, this aforementioned example in Book 14 opens the possibility that there could be.
[11:30] Ruqiya Hiɱʋɾɑ Bσɑ Hɑɗes (pitu.pearl) listens careful and makes some mental notes, she surely would have some topics to talk about with her brothers and companion once they are at home, but for now she remains quiet
[11:30] Zane Kanze is offline.
[11:30] Trygg Tyran (tryggtyran) nods in approval, taking notes
[11:31] Velniar Esharham: In my veiw if I may t a ubar is voted for by the warriors,, its not a inheritance.. as well as scribes vote to a administrator when there is peace... Least that was my understanding.
[11:31] Fogaban: Many Free Women work in Gorean society. Many, meaning it is not rare.
"Many free women work," said Cabot. "Even free women of the upper castes often work. Not all have slaves or servants. Too, work is quite common with free women of the lower castes."
Kur of Gor Book 28 Page 450
I believe all of you would agree that to be an effective Scribe, one must study.
Even a brilliant woman, witty and articulate, LEARNED, of the high Scribes, collared, her blue robes exchanged for a rag, must apply herself to NEW STUDIES, the use of her lips and tongue, of her small fingers and glossy hair.
Mariners of Gor Book 30 Page 292
To be NEW studies . . . there must have been OLD studies.
If the woman Scribe is just "background support, housekeeper, meal preparer - or just a file clerk", she would not need to study. She would not be "learned". If she were learning the CRAFT of a Scribe, these studies now make sense.
Nowhere do the books provide an example of a woman of the Caste of Scribes holding the
[11:31] Fogaban: office of Magistrate or Head of Caste.
But on the other hand, nowhere do the books say it is forbidden.
And lastly, if you have a problem with women in authority, in a male-dominant societal structure, don’t you just hate the ramifications of the history of Tharna?
[11:32] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): although, there would be free women in power who could use that RP, to twist the plot of the sim politically, but that is something that has to do with the story of the sim, and where its headed and usually its a wide plot. There are sims who practice "Advanced Gorean RP" where OOC and IC are clear, and everyone has their emotions where they should. Caste work is not expected from free women. At all. We could be sitting on a cushion, eating cookies and shuffling through all of the gossip from our kajirae and our kajirii all day long while the men die. I'm with Fogoban on Tharna, it was brought up and led by women, and they created their own roles, and their own titles off of the constitution of Ar. They wore masks and their men vowed to them all up until Tarl Cabot showed up
[11:33] Nephtides na Neidos (nephtides) is offline.
[11:33] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): Free women who are considered outlaws in cities, in the civilized Gor, even in villages with law, as I expect you all to know how far laws go, and this is for city laws, civility, judicial. I'm not talking about merchant laws that are rewritten and agreed upon four times a year (not in SL, but in the books)
[11:34] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): they are tribal, wild, marked, naked, with weapons and game of their own, panthers, talunas, and those further south who are cannibals
[11:34] Abraham Jacobson (abrahamjacobs2) is offline.
[11:34] Abraham Jacobson (abrahamjacobs2) entered chat range (3.94 m).
[11:34] Abraham Jacobson (abrahamjacobs2) is online.
[11:34] zCS # [Mod] abrahamjacobs2 Resident [RP] logged into the region.
[11:34] ꝀȺɌ (karisima.stein) smiles beneath the veil, then speaks with quiet conviction.
"I agree — women are capable of holding power and rising to positions of influence. Yet even in such roles, it serves her well to carry herself with grace and decorum. After all, we dwell in a world shaped by men. And though she may possess the knowledge and the skill, her place is permitted because men allow it.
[11:35] Fogaban: I concede this debate to the Lady and next time I will make sure I understand which position I am defending...... *chuckles*
[11:35] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): these women of the wild, they are supposed to be captured, collarded, branded and sold, but some are lucky to be traded with, to be offered commerce. They come dressed up like free. Like us. veiled, covered, hidden
[11:35] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): this is why the magistrates ask for those thighs and should always
[11:35] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): Fogaban, I think we are on the same page but I have something for you
[11:36] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): I miss a Gor where free men were here
[11:36] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): where they would melt me with one post
[11:36] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow): some of those, are still around
[11:36] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow): but flad the.. lands.. of.. drama and about~
[11:37] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): I did have a wild wild grand old time holding roles of power, getting killed, undermined. My companions took it all if I didn't play harder
[11:37] Ruqiya Hiɱʋɾɑ Bσɑ Hɑɗes (pitu.pearl): is that the restricted men thing we where talking about? *she whispers to mews*
[11:37] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): there will always be a challenge for us
[11:37] Abraham Jacobson (abrahamjacobs2): OK we will devide the 5000 L eaqually
[11:37] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): I'm not talking about the kings of mesh or those with 50 weeapons
[11:37] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow) smirkles at Ruqyia
[11:37] Abraham Jacobson (abrahamjacobs2): they both came prepaired and eloquent
[11:37] Alyssa Himura Boa (finola.mayo): me winks at her daughter
[11:37] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): I'm not talking about the ones with the slave girls looking more decorated than me
[11:38] Abraham Jacobson (abrahamjacobs2): Myriam please give the money out.
[11:38] Hermes (prinzensaft): chuckles
[11:38] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): but the ones who know how to make both of us know who exactly who we are when we are standing next to them
[11:38] zCS # [Mod] VoxSin Resident switched from [Combat] to [Away].
[11:38] Abraham Jacobson (abrahamjacobs2): Next is lady Kati on Ask the Magistrate . when you are ready Kati and they are finished
[11:39] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): for positions of powers and who can hold them, go to the rules of the sim and the owners, and also elections, compaigns, let both free men and free women run, and the best one win
[11:39] Anatisti Foulsbane: A gorean women should only choose betwenn freedom and love
[11:39] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): I don't like restricted roles for either of us
[11:39] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): as much as I hate the Home Stone swapping game
[11:39] Ruqiya Hiɱʋɾɑ Bσɑ Hɑɗes (pitu.pearl): Pardon? *she turns her head in slowmotion to Anastasi*
[11:39] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): we are only supposed to have one but tier says, get ready to pledge on a weekly basis
[11:39] Alyssa Himura Boa (finola.mayo) follows the look
[11:40] ꝀȺɌ (karisima.stein): Will always choose Freedom over love. ' chuckles'
[11:40] Hermes (prinzensaft): Slaves, secure the knives and hair needles!
[11:40] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): thank you all for hearing me out and thank you to the women
[11:40] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): thank you to Fogoban for letting me go off
[11:40] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow): i tiell you a tale; of old times gor, the setting is Oasis of Nine wells; in the year 2007 before some of you where even born... i owned a kajira, a beaty on it's own, in arabic silsk she danced and swoomed the lands, a men desired her; and while i was of catse of physicians, it helped not; he desired, what i had, and so the slave was taken from me; thats gor, and how it was; and as i had no companion to argue it, she this slave went lost to me, and gor soon after. Thats what was and no longer is; the changes that came. Are they good or bad, be upon ones own self to ponder, mews would say :)
[11:40] Tariq ibn Joshao al Samini (kitten.serpente): @
[11:40] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): did they even challenge you, Mews?
[11:41] Fogaban: *chuckles* Even though we do not share a Home Stone, I know better than to get in the middle of that.
[11:41] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): there is no way in Gorean hell that you can lose your girl without a fight
[11:41] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow): i am a free women,. i can not chalange a warior
[11:41] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): You can get a champion, you can get a fighter
[11:41] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): pay someone
[11:41] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): but don't lose
[11:41] Tariq ibn Joshao al Samini (kitten.serpente): NodNodNod
[11:41] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): without trying
[11:41] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): its easier to fight for us than to rescue us
[11:41] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow): again times are difrent now
[11:42] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow): back then one had to accept that;
[11:42] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): totally agree
[11:42] Isabela (jennifer.elara) entered chat range (4.37 m).
[11:42] Tariq ibn Joshao al Samini (kitten.serpente): We have to remember that Norman in RL began writing his books as a reaction to modern Feminism, and there is thus a strong male dominance in the books. but we also have to remember this issue of a woman ruling in a male dominated society has existed in RL societies since ancient Athens and Hypatia, the woman philosopher and Hapshetsut the female pharaoh.. We see societies deal with this in different ways ( excuse my spelling )
[11:42] Isabela (jennifer.elara): freetings everyone
[11:42] Jennifer Elara fr>en: freeryone freezing
[11:42] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): Tariq, even if we go biblical, it is a blessing to be under the rule of a man, but there would be no savior if he had not been given birth to by a woman
[11:43] Tariq ibn Joshao al Samini (kitten.serpente): Yes
[11:43] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): now we have Tarid, a blessed one. Do you know how hard its to be an initiate these days?
[11:43] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): its as hard to be a free woman and not be undermined
[11:43] Tariq ibn Joshao al Samini (kitten.serpente): Oh, yes. LOL
[11:43] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow) chukles
[11:43] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): i don't even know how you all keep your caste alive when no one prays. We are supposed to be killing animals 4 times a year
[11:43] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow): hay look gor now!
[11:43] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): to make our "city grow"
[11:43] Hermes (prinzensaft): looks at Melampus with a curious look
[11:43] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow): an initiate and a kurrii in one room ! :P
[11:43] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): now we close the sims 4 times a year
[11:44] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): if there is a Kurii here please take me
[11:44] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow): okay..
[11:44] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): I haven't had fun since the first Ar closed
[11:44] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow) colalrs the vic
[11:44] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): just kidding
[11:44] Tariq ibn Joshao al Samini (kitten.serpente): There are BtB no women in my Caste. What I tell female avis who want to change this is -- CREATYE A MALE AVI and shut up!
[11:44] Alyssa Himura Boa (finola.mayo) growls and pretends she is a Kur
[11:44] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): my son would lose his wits
[11:44] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow) giggles
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