Scribe Summit - Lecture 11:Fogaban The Legality an Unowned Slave and Slave Honor, Is there such a thing?

SUMMARY

Exploration of Gorean Legal and Social Structures Created with Smart Noter ----------------------------------------- The recording delves into the intricacies of Gorean society, focusing on the use of the Gorian Cave website for research and the critical role of caste codes, emphasizing the importance of accurately representing these codes and not attributing them to books. The discussion transitions to builders' safety regulations and the legal implications of a slave having two masters. Further exploration covers the distinctions between brands and collars in Gorean culture, including the processes involved in brand removal and the dynamics of ownership within free companionships. The analysis extends to Gorean law, particularly concerning slave ownership and the legal framework governing free companionships. The conversation also addresses the legality of shared ownership of a girl, the concept of unowned slaves, and the two primary legal states in Gorean society: free people and slaves. Throughout the recording, participants examine the societal norms and legalities that define Gorean culture, highlighting the complexities and nuances of ownership and companionship. The discussions are aimed at providing a comprehensive understanding of the legal and social structures within Gorean society, with a focus on ensuring accurate representation and adherence to established codes and laws. The recording concludes with an acknowledgment of the challenges in interpreting these societal norms and the importance of ongoing research and dialogue to fully grasp the intricacies of Gorean culture. Key Topics: Introduction to Gorian Cave website • The speaker introduces themselves as the owner of the Gorian Cave website, emphasizing its use for research and encouraging others to use it for the same purpose. Discussion on caste codes • The speaker discusses the concept of caste codes, their importance for consistency across cities, and the caution needed to avoid presenting them as being from the books. Builders' safety regulations • Example of a safety regulation for builders is given, emphasizing the importance of not misrepresenting such codes as being from the books. Legality of a slave having two masters • The speaker introduces a discussion on whether a slave can have two masters with equal ownership, posing a question to the audience. Differences between brand and collar in Gorean culture • The brand marks a slave as being a slave, while the collar marks who owns her. Brand removal and ownership in Gorean culture • Brands can now be completely removed, allowing for new branding by a different owner. This reflects changes in Gorean practices. Ownership in free companionships under Gorean law • In free companionships, everything belongs to the male. There is no divorce; companionships end if not renewed, or if one party falls slave or dies. Analysis of Gorean law regarding slave ownership • Two people equally owning the same slave is foreign to Gorean thinking. Decisions should be based on native Gorean perspectives. Shared Ownership and Legal Implications • Discussion on the concept of two men sharing ownership of a girl and the legal implications in Gorean society. Mention of the potential need for legal decisions on such matters. Concept of Unowned Slaves • Exploration of whether an unowned slave can exist in Gorean society. Discussion on the default assumption of slaves being female and the existence of male slaves. Legal States in Gorean Society • Clarification on the legal states in Gorean society, identifying free people and slaves as the two primary states. Discussion on runaway slaves and their legal status. Runaway Slaves and Legal Status • Discussion on the status of runaway slaves, confirming that they remain slaves despite running away. Mention of the non-existence of Talunas and the introduction of a hypothetical group called Taluna Twos.



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AUDIO

Exploration of Gorean Legal and Social Structures Created with Smart Noter ----------------------------------------- 

Speaker 1 - 00:05 I am fagavon and I own and operate the goriancave dot com. If you've ever had a chance to visit my website, it is. It's there for your benefit. It's not really there for my benefit, although, believe it or not, I use it very often for research my own self. There's no need for me to. Oh, all right. Sorry about that. Turn that to that. Turn that to there. All right. There we go. All right. I use the Gorian cave my own self from my. For research. There's no need to pull out the books again. If it's a topic that I've already researched once, I use it too. And I hope that all of you use it for your research. It's there for just that very purpose. I want to make sure I'm going to type in here just to repeat. Speaking in voice. Okay, so hopefully everyone is click the land button for land sound and can hear me. I. I wanted to. To begin with a couple things first before we get into the topic that was in the schedule. 

Speaker 1 - 01:56 We'll have enough time for that, I think. But just some, just some. Some things that I wanted to point out first is on the topic of codes. Any cast can come up with a list of rules, regulations, ways of doing things. It could. And it doesn't matter what the cast is. It could be anything from pottery makers to initiates, anything, you know, the cast of peasants on how they plow their fields or when they plant crops. There can be. There's. Undoubtedly every caste has a set of rules by which they operate so that there is some consistency. And myself as one of the cast of builders, if I leave one city and I travel to another city, that the way things are done and I, you know, I want to go live in another city, the way things are done in the second city or a third city or some city that I visit on vacation. The way things are done in that city are generally all going to be the same because the cast codes are compared with each other from different cities at the Sardar fairs. 

Speaker 1 - 03:34 And so there's. There's. Reasons to have cast codes. There's nothing wrong with having cast codes. And they can be as extensive and complex as you wish them to be. What you have to be careful of, though, is that you don't present the codes that you've come up with as being from the books or even allude to that as being from the book. So let's say as one of the cast of builders. I say that the cast of builders got together and we Decided that if you build any scaffolding. When you're constructing a building, any scaffolding two stories or taller has to have double bracing. Okay, that seems reasonable. It seems like it's a responsible thing to do. You don't want the builders up there on the scaffolding. It to be. If it gets too tall and it falls down and somebody gets hurt, either the. Those are the cast of builders that are working on the scaffolding or passersby on the street to get hurt by the falling, by the scaffolding collapsing. 

Speaker 1 - 05:05 So you've come up with this rule, and you can call it a code if you want to, an admonishment, regulation, whatever adjective you want to use. And you can say that this is a thing that the cast of builders has, that all scaffolding over two stories must have double bracing. Okay, that's great. And you can put that in a note card and you can pass that around and you can have you, you know, to start our fares and you can get together with other builders and you can pass the note cards around. That's, that's fine as long as present that or allude to the fact that somewhere in the books, say somewhere that they talk about the height of scaffolding and how well it's braced because the books don't say anything about it. So my point is, have all the rules and regulations you want, but be very cautious about how you present those so that it doesn't come across as well. 

Speaker 1 - 06:16 This is what the books say, because you can have all. You can have a bunch of people that have all read the books and they all. They all agree that builders need to have some sense of responsibility so that people don't get hurt by the structures that they build. I mean, who wants, who wants to be worried about walking inside of a building and having the roof collapse upon them if the thing wasn't built carefully. You know, it's described in the books where the. Where the roads are built like walls down in the ground so that these roads have lasted for thousands of years and with very little appreciable wear, or that they. The aqueducts that bring water in from the mountains have stood the test of time. And the books do talk about crews of builders that go out and regular walk or drive the distance of the aqueducts and check them to make sure that they're being maintained, that there's nothing that needs to be, you know, patched up or fixed along the way. 

Speaker 1 - 07:36 So there's effort that goes into it. Just be cautious that of how you Present the codes that you've come up with. All right, so that's all I've got to say about that. Now I've lost myself in the notes. All right, let's. Let's go to. Well, bear with me now. So, okay, so I'm going to talk now about whether or not a slave can have two masters. This is another little bonus topic before I get to the topics again that were in the schedule, because this is something that. Oh, Muse is wanting to know. Land stream. Yeah, the land stream. It's on the land stream. This is something that's come up fairly recently that I. That I heard it. I wasn't directly involved in this, but so I. I want to. Let me. Let me just ask the audience, being that you're the bulk of the cast of scribes, what do you. What's the legality of a slave? Two masters. So I'm. I'm talking about equal. 

Speaker 1 - 09:34 Equal ownership. Two people both owning the slave with equal it equally. What. What. What does. What do you think? I'm curious to know. I. Good question. Muse, would she wear two colors in this. In the particular case that I'm familia girl only wears one collar. But yes, Muse, that's a very good point because that's. That's what I would think also as well. She'd have two collar, but not that I'm aware of. In free companionship, both own her. It's possible the brand marks one is being a slave. The color marks she is owned. Yes, well, that's. That's true, too. Okay, go ahead, Drew, you don't. You don't need to raise your hand. What the brand does mark a slave as being a slave, and the color marks who owns her. That's the difference between brand and collar. I was waiting to see. Oh, Drew is typing. Okay. Oh, well, thank you. I'm. I'm as honored to be here to be invited to speak. 

Speaker 1 - 11:23 So the. The honor is mine also, but I thank you very much. Yes, that. That's true, too, but I don't want to topic. I. And I wouldn't mind talking about that if. If there's any questions about still having a brand after you're free because. Well, while. While some other people are talking, I'll mention this. You know, now, unlike like the first thirty five plus, because I don't remember exactly which book it was in now it's one of. So I'll say the. Up through thirty five books. If a girl was branded, even, you know, badly or branded, and somebody else wanted to Brand her again. You couldn't do anything with the brand that was already there. Right. But do you know now that brands can be removed to the point where they don't. The skin is. Is looked. Is completely blemish free. Not that I calling a brand a blemish because I think brands are quite lovely. 

Speaker 1 - 12:50 But brands can now be completely removed. So keep that in mind because there's no reason why you can't apply that here in Second Life, a girl can be branded with. With a brand of some type. She decides to. For whatever reasons. We'll just say for whatever reason, she now has a different master or mistress. I'm talk owner. I should just say owner. And the new owner wants a different brand. There's nothing in the world wrong with her altering her skin or her mesh or whatever the case might be and fixing a different brand because it's a real thing in gore. So, yeah, it's not really a. It's technically, it's not a graft. It's a. I don't. I don't know. It's described. I. You can look it up on the Gorian cave because go to brands and it talks about it there. It would give you the quotes. All right, Drew, the other point I wanted to raise is that already raised by the ambassador Kelly. 

Speaker 1 - 14:13 They didn't freak him. Okay? They didn't. Free companionship could not both owners of the same slave. Well, under Gorian law, in a free companionship, everything belongs to the male. If. If the male can let the female or the. The other party in the free companionship decide what to do with the funds, you know, if. If she wants a new dress every week or. And they can, you know, they have the funds to buy it. I doubt the husband is going. Or the husband, the male companion probably won't do much to argue with her about it. Typically his free companionships are described within the book. Very rarely are they described as something that is loving. I'll put it that way. Also, almost every single free companionship described within the books is what happened in the first place, maybe for love, but usually that wasn't the reason and it's not the reason that they stay together. 

Speaker 1 - 15:34 So. And there is no divorce. Right. So the only way that it's going to end is if it's dissolved or I should not dissolve, but not renewed annually or one of them falls slave or one of them dies. So if it's not renewed, then I guess it's up to the magistrates to decide who gets what. In any event, that. That's not what I'm talking about. Again, that's not the case in this particular situation. It's two men who are not in a relationship with each other who own a slave equally. So my first inclination was no, that it's not. But now you get into this whole thing of where there is no quote that specifically addresses the situation. This is where you have to have knowledge of what I refer to over and over and over again as the overall theme of the books. Because it's only by understanding what the overall theme of the books are from book one all the way through thirty eight, that of. 

Speaker 1 - 17:04 Of what would be if. If this situation was transported to some city on Gore this minute and the only people looking upon the situation are native Goreans, how are they going to react to it? Not how do we react to it with, with the influence, all the other outside influences that we bring bring to the table. But how would a native Gorean react to it? That's the way you have to view it. If indeed you're gonna. You're going to portray yourselves as being Gorean, then you have to, you have to shed of your personal beliefs or influences and understand the situation. Make a decision based upon what. What a native Gorean would do. So best that I came up with was is that there's no such of a thing. It's completely foreign to Agoran way of thinking that two people would equally own the same girl. Now, as I get on into the main topic here, I want to point out that I intend to reason with you just like I did, like I have already. 

Speaker 1 - 18:39 What this means is that unreasonable people are not going to want to hear what I have to say. And there's nothing I can do about that. And I've long since given up trying to. Well, I get trying to insist that people understand what the books are saying. I can't. All I can do is present to you. All I can do is set the table. It's up to you to eat the meal. You know the old, old adage of leading a horse to the water, but you can't make a drink. I'm not quite sure I can even lead anyone to the water. All I can do is present the information. It's up to you to accept it, to use it, or ignore it, or completely outright reject it because you've, you're sure that you know better. And if that's the case, it's kind of like having the cast codes. If you, if you want to have note card after note card after note card of cast codes and present those to new people that they come from the books. 

Speaker 1 - 20:05 There's not a world thing in the world I can do to, to keep it from happening. All I can do is point out every once in a while that it's not the right thing to do. So yeah, that's okay, Kelly. It says I can't wrap my mind around sharing a girl with another dude. One of the us would be dead soon. Yeah, I, I, I don't disagree. I don't, I don't understand it. I don't know how the dynamic happened in the first place. I'm, I'm not privy to, to how that relationship is working. I'm not completely privy to the relationship between the two men. But as far as I understand it's, it's purely two, two different men who both have fun with the same girl. Perhaps not at the same time. I, I don't know. It's really not the point from a legal point of view. And since I was coming to address a summit of scribes, I figured you would enjoy the legality of it. You never know, one of these days somebody might bring something to you to decide upon. 

Speaker 1 - 21:35 Can I, you know, can me and this other guy both own the same girl at the same time? And they will abide by your decision. So you're going to have to, you know, you'll be put in the position of making that decision. Which kind of goes toward is. Since we're talking about now two men owning one girl. What if. No, nobody, no free person owns the girl. When this topic first came up I thought it was a no brainer. I thought, well, because in other words the question is, is there such a thing as an unowned girl or unowned slave by default my mind's programmed to think of slaves as the female slave for whatever reason. I know there's plenty of male slaves, there's plenty of male silks or slaves. There's plenty of male work slaves. Even though the books say that that proportion is, there's basically proportionately hardly any male silk slave. Proportionately there's way more free women than there are slaves. 

Speaker 1 - 23:06 Is. But if I, if I speak of slaves in the feminine, that's why I'm not, I don't mean that, that I'm somehow excluding male slaves. I, so I want to set that straight. Okay. Somehow and just in general conversation, the topic came up of an un unowned girl who I believe she, an unknown girl, had wandered, had come to visit a sim. And the topic came up and, and that she had to have a. She had to have a collar. She had to have an owner, because there is no such thing as an unowned slave. And I'm like, well, what are you. What are you talking about? Of course there are. Well, no, there's not. And it kind. It got into as much of it. The conversation started to turn into an argument, and so I stopped and I said, all right, fair enough. I. I can't back it up this minute, but I'm gonna research it. So I did. And my research on this. This is at the Gorian Cave. Should you wish to go and look it up, I'll give you a. 

Speaker 1 - 24:44 Here's a link. But I wanted to present this to expound upon that the information that's there. How many legal states are there in Gorean society? In other words, you've got free people, you have slaves. So that's two. How many more are there? Okay, elite says free and slave. So two. It's not a trick question. I just. I just want to know if they're. You know, I. I've been out of the loop here in Second Life for a little while. I didn't know if maybe something else has come. Nothing. We're gonna. We're just gonna go with two states. I have to keep a drink of my Diet Coke to keep my. So I don't lose my voice. I used to have vodka in my Diet Coke, but I'm coming up on three years sober, so I don't have vodka in it anymore. Free slave and runaway. All right, well, that. That's interesting. What. So if a. So a runaway slave, I. That's. That's valid. Yes, shes are free. 

Speaker 1 - 26:44 But if a runaway. So a runaway slave. So that's. But. So we're all clear what a runaway is. It's literally a slave. Who. So one of my two girls over here, Becca and Teresa. So if one of them ran away, they, you know, just literally got up and ran off. Because I don't have a leash on either one of them right now. They're not physically constrained, but. So one of them runs away. What. What's. What legal state? So let's just say Becca runs away. What legal state is she? As soon as she leaves my. The vicinity, the city here, she runs off into. We're outside shindy, Right? So we're in the jungles, the fringes of the. Of the. Of the shindy jungles. I. I guess you'll have to correct me on the actual location of. Of where we are physically, let's say. So let's say she's. Let's say that she goes off and is looking for the Talunas, who, by the way, no longer exist. That's a whole nother topic and I'd love to discuss that with you sometime, but. 

Speaker 1 - 28:11 And just in case you think that they do, they don't. Panther girls are still around, but the Talunas were wiped out of existence in the same book that they were introduced to us. If you're not, if you don't believe me, go reread the book. But let's say that. Let's say that there's a new group of runaways, free women in the jungles of shindy, who coincidentally decided to also call themselves Tallunas. Taluna Twos. We can, we can call them the Taluna Twos because they're the, the second group. So Becca goes off and, and to see if she can join the Taluna Twos. What state, what legal state is she? Different forest. Okay. No one. I know there's a lag between when I ask the question and when you hear me ask the question. In other words, when I talk here, there, I know there's like a. Yeah, she's still owned and she's still. Well, no, she's not an outlaw. She's still yours. 

Speaker 1 - 29:36 No legal effect on her. Right. So in other words, she's still a slave. Right? So again, there's still only two states. It, like I said, it's not a trick question. So we have free and we have slave, and there's no five second rule. Right? So, you know, and I asked that because you can be free and you can be free and, and I'm going to use the free women here as an example because there are actual examples of this happening in the books. It's, this is not, you know, it's not conjecture. You don't, you don't have to reason on this to imagine that maybe it could happen. We have actual examples of this happening where a free woman says, I'm a slave girl, utters those words. Now, is there a five second rule you're all familiar with, what, what the five second rule is? Supposedly if you drop a piece of food on the floor, you've got, if you pick it up in five seconds, it's still okay to eat it. 

Speaker 1 - 31:02 Which, by the way, is hardly the case, but yes, drop and eat. Correct. So is there a five second rule for proclaiming if a, if a free woman were to proclaim same thing for a man, by the way, it just, he wouldn't say. Lacazeera. It would, he would utter some other word. But so no, there's, there is no five second rule as soon as those words are uttered. She's slave. She's a slave, okay? So she goes from one legal state to another legal state. Now as soon as she goes from, from the state of being free to the state of being a slave, the legal state, no one owns her when. So, so I've got a question quote here and I'm going to post this so you can kind of follow along as I break this down. All right? It says the slave cannot free herself. She can be freed only by an owner. Now this is another interesting side point. Point. And it's another thing that here we go back to the laws and the rules and the things that scribes get all giddy about because it's something that's apt to come up in role play. 

Speaker 1 - 32:50 A girl comes to somebody, usually someone of. And someone in authority could be. Be. It could be head of caste, it. Some head of cast or some, some person in the, in the community, in the city. It could be the administrator, it could be the ubar. And she says, I haven't seen my master in X days. In three weeks. He's completely ghosted me. I, I had, you know, I've got. Texted him, he hasn't logged in. He's not logged into second life in three weeks or three months or whatever, some period of time. And I don't know what to do because I, you know, he's, he's just not around anymore. And I, I'm. I'm still wearing his collar and I, I don't know what to do. I want to, I don't want to, you know, I want to get out this collar so I can go find another master. And this happens. It happens all the time. Actually. This quote says that she can. It doesn't say that she can be freed by a free person, does it? 

Speaker 1 - 34:16 No, her owner frees her. It says that she can be freed only by an owner. Her, the owner of the girl. Now what that. Now the other application is you can't just go up to another girl and say some other girl that you don't own, whoever you are and just say, you know, know, I, you know, I kind of, I kind of like you, so I'm just gonna free you whether, you know, I'm, I'm. She's a, she's somebody else. And I just walk up and say, I'm gonna free you so that, you know, I can, I can take you as a. My free Companion, you know, whatever the case might be. You don't have that. I don't have that legal right. No one has the legal right to free someone else's slave. So what do you do in the case of where the real life situation of where whoever the master was isn't showing up anymore. So a lot of cities have laws to get around this. There's the. I. I forget now what it was. And I was presented with this when I was administrator in Pheno. 

Speaker 1 - 35:39 Many, many, many, many years ago. I hadn't heard rock and name. What brought up the memories was. Is when I was reading the. The scribe cast code note cards that I was given yesterday and saw her name down at the bottom any. It's something that you've got. You. You're going to be presented with it as a. As a scribe problem. Maybe probably at least as a magistrate or maybe the U bar or the administrator of the city that you're involved with comes to you for advice and says well, hey, as a scribe, what. What do the scrolls say? What. What. How? Well, what are we going to do? And you need to offer some advice. So the only. The only way around it is to make a city rule that gets around this somehow or another. But anyway, I don't want to belabor the point, but I just want you to know that in Renegades it says that only the owner can free the girl. Oh, it's only two weeks in. 

Speaker 1 - 37:06 In Thai, huh? Confined to the tenth. Someone buys and frees her who's visiting Tai. Okay, wait a minute. You're ask. You're asking. Okay, let me read this close closer. If someone buys and frees her who was visiting Taiwan with her first owner, but the former owner is from another city and doesn't accept Thai law. Well, of course you wouldn't. If you're. If you don't, you're not a citizen of Thai ties. Laws don't apply to you at least as long as you're outside of the city. No, you don't have two legal statuses. You're still. You might have. There might be some merchant law may come into effect if two people are claiming the same girl. Now there's a. There is a way around that which is called Slave Challenge. There's a long name for it that I can't begin to pronounce. Starts with a K or a C. Casual ear. I. I can't. I don't remember the word I'm. I could go look it up. 

Speaker 1 - 38:25 But it. Basically it boils down to Slave Challenge and then the two men can fight over her. So it would be, you know, if the, if the one person, the first person is gone, you've got to have some means to get around the fact that you've got to be able to role play it out to where you get around what Renegades of Gore says on page two hundred seventy three. That's my only point. All right. And again, I don't want to belabor it. We can, because we could talk for an hour just about topics like this. But I'm still getting back to this. Is there some point that the free woman. And we're using this example of the free woman. So let's, let's move on. It says that the condition of slavery does not require the collar. This is another really good point. This one paragraph is just like chock full of gems to be found if you just read it slow enough. And this is what I really enjoy doing is just taking this, just taking a paragraph that you could read if you're, if you're in the middle of reading Book twenty three and you're just reading through here and you're, and you read over this paragraph and it's good and it serves its purpose as you're reading book twenty three. 

Speaker 1 - 40:09 But if you stop now and go, and let's look at this line by line, it's just full of life altering information. So it says that the condition of slavery does not require the collar. What you say, you mean I can a girl that's my slave and she doesn't have to wear a collar? It says doesn't have to wear the collar or the brand? What you mean my girl doesn't have to be branded? Or an anklet, a bracelet or ring, or any such overt sign of bondage? Such things, as symbolic as they are, as profoundly meaningful as they are, and as useful as they are for marking properties, identifying masters and such are not necessary to slavery. Wow, that's just, that is profound information. But you say, yeah, but the city has a law that. Okay, yeah, that's fine. I'm not, I'm not, I'm, I'm just, I'm just reading to you what the book says. Now you can go if you want, go research and you can go to the Gorian cave and research two things. 

Speaker 1 - 42:04 Research merchant law because there's a, there's a page on merchant law and there's a page on collars, but mostly merchant law because merchant law is where, where it's prescribed that slaves should be branded and collared. Right. That's one Thing that we could probably all agree with in our first and second answers to that brand and collar would be yes and yes, they should both. They should be branded and they should be collared because that's what merchant law prescribes. And if you're a magistrate, your. Your first book of rules should be what merchant law says, because that you're. Unless it's. Unless you're confined. If you never leave the city that you're. That you're living in, then maybe, well, you still need to know what merchant law is. So your, your guess, your first book of laws is going to be what the city says. But you have to know what merchant law is. 

Speaker 1 - 43:13 Can anyone tell me why is merchant law a city? Did a city abide by merchant law? Why is that so important? That's the finance piece girl can be identified by her body measurements. Oh yeah. I mean, they've got fingerprints and footprints. If you read, if you read book twenty five again, when Taro captures Talina in the couching laws and you read, read that over again, the detail of which he has her identified, every inch of her body was meticulously inspected and documented by those two scribes. It's quite interesting. Okay, Merck says merchant laws. Wait a minute. Back up. Merchant law is gore wide decided annually at Sardar fairs among merchants. Merchant laws use as merchant laws less discrepancy set of rules to allow commerce between two codified lands. Yes, yes. Merchant law is international law. Okay, all right, I agree mostly with that. 

Speaker 1 - 44:41 But here, here's the. Here is why merchant law abiding by merchant law is so important. If a city decides they are not going to abide by merchant law, they are not permitted access to the Sardar affairs. And no city, no what we'll say like, no, I call them the cylinder cities. Although that's kind of. But you've all, you know, all the cities like Churia and Tor and, and Shindy and all of the. I, I don't care what's, what's. No city wants to be isolated from commerce with other cities. And the way that you make that you're able to have commerce and trade with other cities is if you go to the Sardar fairs and you make sure that like for instance, weights. Just, just one, one little example or weights and measures. And at the Sardar fair they have the master weights and measures that you can take the, the weights and measures from your city and you can transport them over there and then you can compare them to the weights of the master stone and, and the gorian foot it just two examples so that your weights are correct and you come back to your city and then those master samples are locked away and it's, and it's. 

Speaker 1 - 46:40 If it's not the merchants in your city, then it's going to be the scribes that are going to maintain that information and those artifacts so that your, your dealings with the cities that you deal with are, are honorable. And you're, if you're going to sell them a stone of wheat that it's, it's this much, it's baskets this big. And all of that is codified and kept the same at the Sardar Fairs. And so you, you really want to have access to the Sardar Fairs, and that's all great and wonderful and you're welcome to attend as long as you abide by merchant. So, oh, no fun. If you ever hear in RP that merchant law can be ignored. It's not that important. You can point out to the person, oh really? I guess you don't attend the Sarno Fairs then, because you don't consider who does trade with any other cities to be important. So you can blend that into the rp, you know, the one with the short hair. 

Speaker 1 - 47:57 Certainly an everyday fact of life on tour. All right, now let's keep going with this paragraph. It's a problem with their physical training at the Summerlin Institute of Military High School. So these things, the, the, the collar and the brand it says they are in effect, though they're affixing, can legally affect embondment. Now what does that mean? The verb affect in this case means to act upon or produce a change in or influence. So using those extra words, you can say that affixing a collar or a brand can legally produce a change in their embodiment. In other words, if you put a collar on somebody, could legally affect their, their legal state of whether or not they are free now does it? If, if, if you have an RP situation where some guy who's being a real asshole. I didn't need to add that. But. So in the rpn, he puts a collar on a free woman and he claims that she's now his slave. 

Speaker 1 - 49:34 Or let's say the free woman goes in the Paga tavern and you know, you get into the whole, are free women allowed in Paga taverns or are they not? And if they step inside the threshold, they're immediately collared and reduced to slavery, which, which is two different things. But, you know, so we, we're just going to say that the guy puts It. On the free woman and. And in the whole art, the whole arc of the. Of the rp, the story arc that. That she's now his slave. And maybe he uses this quote as a. As a basis for what he just did. That would be a stretch because there's an example in the books of a free woman. Of a man. Of a free man. I guess you shouldn't need to preface that, but of a man who locks a collar on the neck of a free woman in front of plenty of witnesses and she is not immediately declared to be his slave. It's probably more than one instance, but the one I'm thinking of is when Kamshak does it to Aphrus in book four. 

Speaker 1 - 51:03 Does anybody remember that example there at the big Big. Camshack and Tarl have been invited to the big dinner in Churia. And Afris is mocking Kam. She walks in and she says she smells Bosque dung. And he says, hey, I've got a present for you. And she comes over and leans over. He says, no, I want to. I want to, you know, give you this gift myself. And she leans over. He locks a collar around her neck. Everybody remember that? Anyway, so. But she's not declared a slave. And there's this big brouhaha and a fight almost breaks out, but it. It doesn't quite. Because Camshack has a quiver in his hand. And then they. They call them for the metal workers to come. Somebody from the cast of metal workers to come and remove the collar because Camshack has accidentally forgotten the key to the collar. Anyway, book four is full of a lot of humor. I. That's actually my favorite, favorite book. 

Speaker 1 - 52:27 Anyway, so that's not what this quote in book twenty three is saying, that as soon as you lock a collar on a neck that she's instantly a slave and there's. There's no recourse in. Does give you some food for thought, though. And that's the whole purpose. The whole purpose behind my whole discourse this morning is to give you folks some. Just some food for thought. Like I said, as I'm. I've put this table out and I'm putting out these dishes of food for you to either partake of or at least hope they, you know, that. That it smells good and it get in it and it gives you something to think about. All right. It's also a reason why. Why most free women won't wear a necklace here, especially here in Second Life. Do you know that. That in case you're not a free woman or if you are a free woman. Why? You know, if anybody's ever told you if as you start getting dressed as a free woman, you're brand new to second life and somebody tells you, oh my God, don't ever wear a necklace. 

Speaker 1 - 53:43 Why? Well, I don't know, because that's what somebody told me. You know, that's how so much gets spread around. But I don't know, I can't give you a good reason, but that's what I was told. But anyway, that's why a lot of free women won't wear a necklace and is because they it's too close to being a collar and they don't want it to look like a color. Although I will tell you that in the books, free will women do wear necklaces. Just so you know, if you really did want to wear a necklace, it. It's somebody can't make that big a deal about it even if they wanted to. All right, now let's keep going. In this last bit of this paragraph, the uncolored slave is not then a free woman, but only a slave who has not then in who. Who is not then in a collar. Okay, so we have a slave who is a slave, duh, but is not yet in a collar. And the purpose of a the collar identifies who her owner is. 

Speaker 1 - 55:05 So that's the point is that Renegades on page two hundred and seventy three shows that we have slaves who do not have owners. And then to finish the paragraph it says similarly, a slave is still a slave even if her brand could be made to magically disappear. Now interestingly, this is written book twenty three is before John Norman came up with the idea or at least codified the idea that brands could be removed. When he wrote book twenty three it was still a thing that was impossible because mentions that if a brand could be made to magically disappear because it would take magic to make a brand disappear. So back when I was really got into this, back in the days of Yahoo. Gore, we only had twenty five books. That's all the canon that we had. And so it was, it was impotent. Once a girl was branded, it was impotent possible to remove it any more than if you get branded in real life. 

Speaker 1 - 56:26 You can't get it removed. Certainly not to have no blemish on your skin whatsoever. All right, so along with other things, this is one of the things that got changed as time went on. All right, and then it finishes the sentence or if she'd been made a slave in some other way, she'd not yet been branded. So, so if the free woman proclaims herself a slave girl by uttering the words I am a slave girl, she is then at that moment a self pronounced slave. And we have example like so this is example right here and I'll post it. We have this example of that exact thing happening where she cries out la kajira and it says this formula once spoken is irrevocable. She is then a self pronounced slave. Like I said, there's no five second rule. Rule. She can't, like, like, you know, hit her mouth with her, with her, with her hand, like, oh, what have I done? I didn't mean that. 

Speaker 1 - 57:49 I didn't mean that. You know, there's no, there's no five second rule. We'll take that. No, it doesn't have to be to an owner. She can simply proclaim herself a slave. It, you know, who, who be. Who it is that becomes her owner is not up to her. Right? I mean, she may hope that it was the guy that she just said it in front of, but she has no control over who's going to be her owner. He could say, I don't want you. Yes, the first that grabs her is. And owns are. So at that moment that she utters those words at the first, no one owns her. So no matter for how long, the fact that she's an unowned slave is still the same state that she's in. She's still a slave, but she has no owner. And that's the, that's the bottom line point behind this whole discussion is, is to answer the question, is there such a thing as an unowned slave? To me, I can't imagine that anybody has any good question that. 

Speaker 1 - 59:21 But so now we get on into the later books. So here's, here's the next one and I'll just focus on this last sentence. Even if she lacks a master, she is a slave. Well, you can't get much more plain than that. I, I, you know, I. Which is exactly the words I've said. But then when I went and did the research, it's like omg, right here it says it all right. Then there's this last one in book thirty, notice in the first, the first paragraph, it says you are a slave between masters, which means you had a master. You don't right now you're going to have a master in the future, but right now you don't have a master. And, and then the author who's a, who's a, who is the slave asks how can that Be. And he goes on to say that you. You are susceptible to being claimed by anyone. And. And then. Oh, this is interesting. So I'm going to. Then in the same book later on, four hundred pages later, there's this quote. 

Speaker 1 - 01:01:32 And it's. It says at the read down, it says at the moment. Then he said, you are an unclaimed slave. And again she says, I'm not sure I understand that status. He says, you can be claimed by any free person. Now notice this. And she says, ask the question by a stranger, a passerby, a child. The answer is yes. So any free person. So not. Of course we don't have child avatars in Second Life. I got that whole thing. And I'm not. I'm not about to broach the topic of saying that we should be allowed child avatars. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a of bunch to step across that line. But if you remember in. When Taro has the girl out in the Tahari and he stops at the one tent, the one little camp and it's the brother and sister are there minding the. The well column Sheep, for lack of a better word. I know that's not what they're called, but the minding the animals while the. 

Speaker 1 - 01:02:56 The parents are not there. The. The little boy who's like ten years old has the girl get down and he looks her over, inspects her like. Like any Gorean male would. Would ex. Would look at or inspect a slave. And she's basically. She's mortified over it. And Taro's like, you know, shut up. He's a. He's a free person. You'll do what he's. He looks her over, inspects her like. Like any Gorian male would. Would look at or inspect a slave. And she's basically. She's mortified over it. And Taro's like, you know, shut up. He's a. He's a free person. You'll do what he says. So anyway, no doubt about it that there are indeed a time when a girl could be an unowned slave. So this. This whole, you know, especially here in Second Life where you have a girl could show up in. In the city and hasn't had. Isn't wearing a collar. The fact that she be treated. First of all that she should be treated worse because of it. 

Speaker 1 - 01:04:34 I mean worse than you would a slave that showed up with an owner. It would still be treated as a slave. Don't get me wrong. I'm not advocating that she should be treated with Some gentleness or kindness or. I mean, not that you're going to treat her any better that you would any other slave, right? I. I'm not advocating that. But by the same token, you wouldn't have any right or any right. You don't. There's no justification from the books to treat her any worse than you would any other slave who's obviously owned. Does that make sense? I hope that makes sense. And there's also no reason to. To. To chastise women her for walking around with no collar. I guess that's what I'm trying to say because I've seen it happen. I've seen girls that. There was this one girl who was. Who. Who taught me and. And Ty. Well, mostly Ty, but taught me too some. That. What the hell is it? 

Speaker 1 - 01:05:55 Spot on. The dance thing. It's called Spot on. Okay. That dance thing. Spot on where you. You. If you. If you do anything at all with dancing. You know what I'm talking about. If you don't ask a dancer, it's. It's like the. It's an awesome dancing program that you. To choreograph to choreographed dancers. Anyway, so this girl knew a lot about the program Spot on here in Second Life. So we. We asked some people and they said yeah, ask this person, this woman. So we did and she was kind enough to come and give us private lessons on how to program the. Or how to. Yeah. How to program this application. You can. You can buy it at Marketplace. Because it's complex. If you look into it. It's not. It's not just one thing. There's all kinds of add ons that you can do. It's very complex, but it's. It's really, really neat. If you're ever going to get into dancing, it would be a thing you're going to want. 

Speaker 1 - 01:07:07 All right. Come to find out, this woman used to be and Gore but had dropped out for years. And so we said. She said as we've developed this dance. Well, okay, Ty's had developed the dance. I think Becca was in it too, wasn't she? Yeah, Becca was in it too. So we developed this dance for a. For a dance thing in Coroba and she came to give us the tips and help with the details of the program. And then she came back and saw the finished product and she was astounded. She said, oh my goodness, you. You did such a great job. I would like to come and watch the finished. The. You know, the actual production. And so we invited her to come to the. To the production. And she's. She's like, well, I have to confess, I used to be in Gore. And we're like, oh, well, okay. And. And she was trying to decide whether to come as a free woman or a slave. And I said, well, she's. Anyway, the point being is that she didn't want to come as an. 

Speaker 1 - 01:08:21 As a slave without a collar because of all the grief she was going to get for it. Now, to me, that's pretty sad that her biggest concern, which overrode the fact that she wanted to see this production, was that she was afraid of the grief she was going to get for showing up as an uncolored slave. That the Gorian community would be that harsh as to that, based on the experiences that she had. Dad. That, that basically we would turn her away. Where the hell do you think we come from anyway? And I'm not. I'm. I'm preaching to the choir, I'm sure. I, I, I don't. I don't mean to sound. I'm not. You. You folks weren't involved, but. But it just irritates me that second life Gorian community as a whole just needs to learn some stuff. All right, so I could go on to the. To the last topic of the morning or the day or depending on what hour it is for you, which is do slaves have honor? 

Speaker 1 - 01:09:40 Which is a whole topic all of its own that we haven't even touched on. I'm trying to figure out how much time I've got left, and I lost my. Oh, here it is. Oh, I've got about twenty minutes that I don't think is even enough time to get started on slave owner. So let's do this instead. How about. If anyone has any questions, if you want to just. If, if you have any questions about slave honor or if you wish to, I'll give you the page that is the source of all my notes for slave honor. I'll post it here because there are a lot of. Of people that swear up and down that slaves have honor. Wait, I said what? This is to kick off my. Oh, all right. Okay, here we go. I see. I can see her anxiety and not wanting to go to a place and go our second life without a collar in her place, I would, too. I suppose she could have submitted to you and gone in your collar and then you. Yeah, I. 

Speaker 1 - 01:11:28 That's true. True. And I, and, and, and actually, I offered that, but she also. If she was going to accept someone's collar, she wanted it to be more than just for an afternoon. So I, I had to respect her decision in that particular case. And, and, and, and it's not, it's just a, it was just an example of how, in my opinion, how not to treat. How it shouldn't be your first reaction if you see a girl without a collar to, to, to treat her rudely because. Correct. There's no, no Teflon or Velcro collars. Mew says honor is in the eye of the beholder. Not to declare one's own self and usually is granted to one. The example I give on the, on the page when I did all of the research on this and was the experience example of Eleanor and port car. And if you're at all familiar with Eleanor, when she goes to give the wine to Basque and it's. And she, she was placed in the house of Bosque to assassinate him. 

Speaker 1 - 01:13:35 I don't know. And this is all in book seven. How many of you remember this if you've read book seven or not? She's placed in the house of Basque to assassinate him and she poisons his wine, a cup of his wine and hands it to him. And she's standing right there. He's about to drink. The next goes to give the wine to Boss and it's. And she, she was placed in the house of Bosque to assassinate him. I don't know. And this is all in book seven. How many, how many of you remember this if you've read book seven or not. She's placed in the house of Basque to assassinate him and she poisons his wine, a cup of his wine and hands it to him. And she's standing right there and he's about to drink the next. His next glass of wine. And then, then she calls out and says, master, don't drink it. It's poisoned. So she basically by the act of her yelling out, she saves his life. So therefore that people use that as an example. 

Speaker 1 - 01:15:20 Example of perfect example of a slave having honor and through a long discourse of the life of Eleanor and quote after quote after quote after quote, I ripped that idea to shreds that Eleanor was displaying honor when she told boss not to drink the poisoned wine. So I don't. I'm. I. In fifteen minutes. I can't begin to get into it. Maybe another time I would be happy if I, if, if I were to be so invited, I'll come back and, and do another talk because it's a. I could probably talk an hour just on that topic alone. Caleb says to honor the code, death before dishonor. A hero dies once, a coward daily. I do not mean to call you or anyone a coward. It's all it is. It's rhetoric. Maybe the slave has a bit of integrity, not honor. Well, it's again, I don't, I don't. You know, with only ten minutes left, I can't begin to get into, into all the details. If, if there's any other thing somebody would like to ask because we again, I, I'd be happy to come back someday and give you a maybe next year at the next slave and slave next year at the next scribe. 

Speaker 1 - 01:17:30 It. No. What was the craziest thing you did on Gore second life that can be stated in public. All right, I'll give you the, I'll give you this. I'll tell you the story of the yellow but banana suit. So speaking of being administrator in pheno so this goes. No. What was the craziest thing you did on your second life that could be stated in public? All right, I'll give you the, I'll give you this. I'll tell you the story of the yellow banana suit. So speaking of, of being administrator in fina. So this goes back to two thousand nine. Ten something somewhere. Somewhere along those lines. I, I can't remember exactly what year it was but it was certainly back in the days when raiding sims was still all the rage. I, I, I guess it still is but back then it was incredibly popular and as the admin as administrator I was dealing with duties and, and girls would come up, would talk with me about different things. 

Speaker 1 - 01:20:08 So we had the, the sim, the city I should say had a public bath. And so I took one of the girls up and I said I need you to wash my hair. I'm gonna go up and take a bath. I need you to wash my hair. So she was all giddy and excited and said yes master and followed me up to the bath and so I, I, I actually had this prim because this is all back in days of prim, right? This is long before mesh anything for, for those of you who go back that far that if you're, if you don't know what Ruth bodies are are then it's, it's hard to understand what I'm the differences between mesh clothes and the old prim clothes. So I actually had these prim in my inventory that I could throw out on the ground and it looked like a, like a pile of clothes. It was really cool for rp so and it's only me and her at this, this swimming pool and the swimming Pool had pose balls in it where you could float in the water. 

Speaker 1 - 01:21:30 All very rudimentary stuff back then, but you know, it was it. It got the job done. And the rp's rp, you know, your tools you have for RP come and go and get better or get worse, but the RP is still there, right? You can tell a. You tell a story or have fun with the rp no matter what. What. Anyway, so we get in the water. I get naked and put my pile of clothes out on the. Out on the edge of the pool. And. And unlike you women, us guys, when we get naked, we have to put a penis on because, you know, we. You can't wear one. You go, women, you can take your clothes off and your pan. Hey, you're all set and ready to go. Well, for the guys, you can't do that. You have to. So. So I get naked and I. And I take the in. In my inventory and I get my penis out and, and, and add it, attach it to my. To my avatar, right? So I get in the pool and we're rping, she's washing my hair. And. And before any. 

Speaker 1 - 01:22:41 It goes before any sex is involved. It never. It never made it that far. So I just. Just so you don't to burst your bubble there. It didn't. This isn't a thing about sex. So we're laying in the pool. I'm laying in the pool. She's in the pool and we're rping, she's washing my hair. And the alarm goes off with a city's picture being attacked. You know, and I don't know if you have that here where the. Ring a bell outside. You could ring a bell if you were a visitor and somebody would go down and you know, open the gate and lower the drawbridge. I think at the build we had at the time, there was a drawbridge, but. But you could ring the alarm if you saw that we were being attacked. Well, the alarm goes off so m. Wide and I'm like, oh my God. And I climb out of the pool and I. And I for. Because the pile of clothes on the, on the ground are not actual clothes. It's a prim. That just looks like clothes, right? 

Speaker 1 - 01:23:48 So I opened my inventory real fast because the alarm's going off and, and people. The chat just went haywire. It's. It's, you know, all these people inventory real fast. And I scroll down and I picked this. I just grabbed this outfit and put it on and it's about as yellow. The top is about as yellow is the shirt I'm wearing right now, and the pants are just as yellow. I swear to God, I look like a banana. And I jump up and run down as fast as you can run in Second Life, right? Which is not all that terribly fast. But I finally, I make it down to the main gate and I run out of the gate and I'm right out there at the walkway where the drawbridge is, and there's four or five of the warrior cast of warriors standing around out there. And I run out, you know, like, you know, what's going on? Who's attacking us? You know, and. And one of them turns around and looks at me and says, you know, what the hell, Fog? 

Speaker 1 - 01:24:50 You gonna fight him off with that? I'm like, what are you talking about? Well, as I'm walking toward, running toward the gate, cameras behind me, right? Just like all of you. I didn't look at me from the front. And I never took my penis off when I put my yellow banana suit on. And so I'm standing out there and in my yellow banana suit, which was the God awful. I never wore that thing, it was so ugly. And I'm standing out there in that yellow banana suit with my penis poking straight out, and these guys just were dying, laughing and just the. And just couldn't do. Wouldn't let it die. Couldn't. Could not get over the fact that I had. I had done such a thing. So, no, they weren't Voice. This is, this is long before we, you know, Voice was really a thing. You. You could do local voice, but we didn't have anything like being able to do Sam Streams. Or at least I didn't back then. 

Speaker 1 - 01:26:02 No, this was. This was all in text chat. So then it turned out that the alarm was a false alarm anyway. We weren't being attacked. Thank God there weren't a bunch of people out there literally attacking us at the time. But, you know, I sure had my sword ready. So anyway, that's. That's my. That's my most embarrassing, craziest thing that. That ever happened to me. Yeah. Everybody got an eyeful? All right, so coming up with five minutes to go. I could do. As long as the story doesn't now four minutes. I'm. I'm just gonna. I'm gonna go ahead and call it because I don't want to encroach upon the next incoming. Next incoming. Whoever's speaking next. So I'm going to turn the stream back over to. So and turn it back over to the music. I Appreciate all of you being here. Your. I certainly appreciate all of your participation because these talks. I've always wanted to have talks where there's participation. 

Speaker 1 - 01:27:34 I don't ever want to be someone who talks to you. I want to talk with you. I want you to reason on. I just want to present the information and then have you reason on it your own self. And all the quotes that are there in chat are snippets of what the books say. Don't. Don't take that snippet as a. As a stat. Go pull your book out and read the whole chapter. Read everything about it so, you know, you completely understand the whole context of who's talking, talking and why they're saying what that snippet is saying that they said. Right. Do you understand? I. It. I don't want. I, I don't base what I'm presenting to you to reason on. I'm not presenting that with just one sentence or a piece of a sentence out of the whole thirty eight books, the seven million, seven and a half million words that are out there now, and take. Say here, here's six words I want you to base your entire lifestyle on. 

Speaker 1 - 01:28:47 Well, that would. That would just be an asinine thing to. To do. So read the whole thing in context and understand and then the other quotes that go along with it. That's what all that research is for. Okay. All right. Oh, and I announce who's next. What. Well, okay, I can do that, I think. Oh, there's a debate coming up. Autumn hall and Stefan Cabot. So I guess everybody needs to head over to. Across the way to the debate hall and hopefully. Oh, the debate was removed. Oh, well, I don't have that on. Okay, well, then I'm not sure what is next. But in any event, thank you all for being here and thank you even more so for your participation. Hopefully you were able to walk away from this with just one little tidbit of information that either you didn't know in the first place or hadn't thought about in the way I presented it before. And now it gives you a little something else to think about. Speaker 1 - 01:30:09 And with that, I wish you well.

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[08:00] Hermes (prinzensaft) shouts: Well I guess in absence of the organizers I welcome Fogaban and express our gratitude that you are here and share with us your insights into Slave honor

[08:00] Kaellaed Rhode: that seesm oxymoron word joinage but i am open to here contrary

[08:00] Hermes (prinzensaft) shouts: Davor, you'd need to approach a bit to read what's said and not shouted

[08:00] Drew Barnard entered chat range (11.87 m).

[08:01] Hermes (prinzensaft) shouts: But in any case Fogaban will talk on the Land Stream¨! So please switch it on!

[08:01] Kallis (jinny.enyo) is offline.

[08:01] Kai (vaxxar) is offline.

[08:01] Kaellaed Rhode: you are coming in lima charlie

[08:01] Hermes (prinzensaft) shouts: I cannot stay unfortunately but wish you lots of fun and inspiration!

[08:01] shar Silverclaw-Jacobson (shar.boxen) is online.

[08:02] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow): ne eug mew uses wingrep so i get results for `new books to`

[08:02] Fogaban: Just to repeat, I am speaking in voice

[08:03] Trygg Tyran (tryggtyran) is online.

[08:03] Rea Stoneshield (reachtail) is online.

[08:04] ƈɨʟɨӼ Ӽʊռ (xunfu) entered chat range (5.42 m).

[08:04] zCS # [Mod] Xunfu Resident [RP] logged into the region.

[08:05] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow): Fogabans lecture is on voice via land radio or tune in at http://us-01.unitystreams.net:8018

[08:07] Sabayna (tremlays): When the Builders bring down their buildings, the Physicians have to fix it.

[08:07] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow) thinks one no need scafolding either; we just use the floating mechanism used in the floating lamps, is how we build the high towers after all

[08:08] Trygg Tyran (tryggtyran) entered chat range (9.73 m).

[08:09] Lark (baybeelamb) entered chat range (19.69 m).

[08:09] Odette Atheria is offline.

[08:09] Kati Evans: ((not working))

[08:09] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow): ?

[08:09] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow): tha land stream or ?

[08:09] Sabayna (tremlays): With me its working.

[08:09] Fogaban: On the Land Stream

[08:09] Rumpelstilz (pitt2016): works well for me too

[08:10] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow): kati says it aint working; works for me

[08:10] Rumpelstilz (pitt2016): Just toggle the Start/Stop

[08:10] Kaellaed Rhode: It's possible, Free Companionship, both own her

[08:10] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow): would she wear two collars?

[08:10] Nephtides na Neidos (nephtides) is online.

[08:10] Dawn Lane (dawnna.lane) is online.

[08:11] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow): a brand marks one, as being a slave, the colalr marks, she is owned

[08:11] Drew Barnard: @

[08:11] Charlotte Spicer (charlottefrees) is online.

[08:11] Drew Barnard: ah, ok .. .thank you. May I first say that it is an honour to make your acquaintance.

[08:12] Drew Barnard: I had two things to say

[08:12] Kaellaed Rhode: a free person after proper manumision could have a brand and yet be free

[08:12] Drew Barnard: First. I would like it noted that a slave may be either a female *or* a male.

[08:12] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow): but two is not that strangem, for one could argue, a slave owned by the city; lets say a streat cleaning slave; would be owned, by the city wish implies, like 6000 owners. :P

[08:12] Lađγ Lïv Thε Hσŋεγ Mεŗcɧanŧ (cherry.rabbit) is offline.

[08:13] ꝀȺɌ (karisima.stein): Aye

[08:13] Drew Barnard: The other point I wanted to raise that already raised by Ambassador Kaellaed ... that in a Free Companionship, could not both be owners of the slave?

[08:13] Lađγ Lïv Thε Hσŋεγ Mεŗcɧanŧ (cherry.rabbit) is online.

[08:13] Kaellaed Rhode: skin grafting Lady Lyra does that

[08:14] Rea Stoneshield (reachtail) is offline.

[08:14] shanni (shannondoa) is offline.

[08:14] Odette Atheria is online.

[08:15] Drew Barnard: Slave in not gender specific! The boys of my chain are testament to that!

[08:15] Sabayna (tremlays): Yes, Lady Lyra is the best specialist for that.

[08:15] Davor O'Donnell (davoroflaura): I'm not a very experienced. Was said above that in case of FC both would own the slave? but does it not say that about FC anything the FW owns belongs her companion for the time of the FC? Then the slave would be owned by the Male companion, not by both.

[08:15] Kaellaed Rhode: oh good point the Man owns all

[08:16] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow): in those cases it called, she belong to the house of 'xxx';

[08:16] Kaellaed Rhode: oh they treat us like hubbies, honey dew this honey do that

[08:17] Avery Bade (freyadragonborn) is online.

[08:17] Kati Evans: (( nope, I can't get it to play. blocked three different ways I tried. ))

[08:18] Kaellaed Rhode: OMG 38 now!

[08:18] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow): yes 38 now,.

[08:18] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow): :)

[08:19] Sabayna (tremlays): My companion's favorite would give me the finger if I claimed to be her owner.

[08:19] Drew Barnard: Slave ...

[08:19] Davor O'Donnell (davoroflaura): Would I own my house or my sword equallt

[08:19] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow): 5 telnarian books, ghost dance. imaginative slave, normans invasions , time slave...

[08:19] Kaellaed Rhode: I can't wrap my mind around sharing a girl with another dude, one of us would be dead soon

[08:20] Kaellaed Rhode: but you point the way adn have made a cave map

[08:21] Laela (legion40): hehe, well people do that, but like remember back long ago when people had two or three avatars and on monday , they were this girl ...tues a diff girl?

[08:21] Lysander Tyran is online.

[08:22] Kaellaed Rhode: if they are lovers i see that coudl happen, why own her you can have fun with unowned

[08:22] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow): perhaps point out more importantly; we all or least us oldies, learned gor, by traveling the books, the world; and wrote that in notes; how fair is it you trow that on a new user, without giving them the same right to travel and learn; as it was the exploration that got us wanting to be gorean, and now you expect new people, to just take notes and not explore,.

[08:23] Davor O'Donnell (davoroflaura): it is important to point to the overall theme of the books, we all think we know merchant law, but some things are not in the merchant law, as a Gorean would not even think about to raise the question.

[08:23] Kaellaed Rhode: slave==girl

[08:23] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow): yes; there are,. multiple sorts even

[08:23] Drew Barnard: I am of the view that societies and social mores evolve. I know some Goreans are not of this view.

[08:24] Kaellaed Rhode: much to our chagrine

[08:24] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow): not in books there not; in books it like 60% of women are not free

[08:24] Second Life: Velniar Esharham gave you Free Companionship Contract: Huszan Minotaur.

[08:24] ꝀȺɌ (karisima.stein): People are quick to collar.

[08:25] Fogaban: https://www.thegoreancave.com/research/unowned.php

[08:25] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow): one couild argue, the she urt, technikly free; is a un9wned slave, just daft and not have them all up there

[08:26] Kaellaed Rhode: assume a slave's owner dies, he is sole, no kin, no will. is she not an unowned slave?

[08:26] Kaellaed Rhode: Free, slave

[08:26] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow): backup to save markets; a kennel may own a hundred slaves for sale, but they not own the girl, or boy directly just indirect for sale

[08:27] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow): those slaves are usualy chain bound by the anle but bare no collar; she is, un owned

[08:27] Kaellaed Rhode: like there is male and female, free and slave. I understand others disagree

[08:27] ꝀȺɌ (karisima.stein): Free , slave and the runaways

[08:27] Kaellaed Rhode: urts are free,

[08:27] Kaellaed Rhode: Congratulations Fog

[08:27] ﾚаяа (larabones) is offline.

[08:28] Davor O'Donnell (davoroflaura): You mean runaway after one hand?

[08:28] Becka (fogabansgirl): blinks

[08:28] Kaellaed Rhode: they are still owned even if they have left

[08:28] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow): she be still ownes for the doccumentationm says so; she not per say unowned in that sense.

[08:28] Kaellaed Rhode: it's not her mind or her actions it is the collar, i'ts still yours

[08:29] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow): difrent forest

[08:30] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow): she still owned

[08:30] ꝀȺɌ (karisima.stein): outlaw

[08:30] Kaellaed Rhode: she's still yours, no legal effect to her running away

[08:31] Becka (fogabansgirl) is still blinking

[08:31] Davor O'Donnell (davoroflaura): hand hand rule merchant law, after a week she is not owned any longer

[08:31] Sabayna (tremlays): According to the law, the runaway is clearly a slave and has an owner. Her ownership rights expire only after a certain period of time, when someone else claims her.

[08:31] Second Life: Items successfully shared.

[08:31] ρąŋɖą (esma.heartsong) is online.

[08:31] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow): there no period; it about the men having his or her papers; and said cocuments are recgnised with the walls it called upon

[08:31] Avery Bade (freyadragonborn) is offline.

[08:31] Avery Bade (freyadragonborn) is online.

[08:32] Kaellaed Rhode: no tiem does not end it is not like failure to renew FC, a slave is a slave to here owner until sold or captured

[08:32] Kaellaed Rhode: drop and eat

[08:32] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow): o.O

[08:33] Fogaban: The slave cannot free herself. She can be freed only by an owner. The condition of slavery does not require the collar, or the brand, or an anklet, bracelet or ring, or any such overt sign of bondage. Such things, as symbolic as they are, as profoundly meaningful as they are, and as useful as they are for marking properties, identifying masters, and such, are not necessary to slavery. They are, in effect, though their affixing can legally affect imbondment, ultimately, in themselves, tokens of bondage, and are not to be confused with the reality itself. The uncollared slave is not then a free woman but only a slave who is not then in a collar. Similarly a slave is still a slave even if her brand could be made to magically disappear or, if she has been a made a slave in some other way, if she has not yet been branded.

Renegades of Gor Book 23 Page 273

[08:33] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow): per the books, one can see one is a slave by how she walks, acts and is; weather she bares a collar or not; she is a slave, weather she branded or not; but she in at that moment owned by the authority of the place she wanders in.

[08:34] Kaellaed Rhode: so it is not the collar or the ownershp paper but the real bond between master and girl they form, regardless of material signs of ownershp.

[08:34] shar Silverclaw-Jacobson (shar.boxen) is offline.

[08:36] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow): welcome to the city kennels~

[08:37] Kaellaed Rhode: abandonment, like 2 weeks no show she reverts to kennels of city

[08:38] Sabayna (tremlays): The City of Ti had a law that abandoned slaves (within two weeks) were to be confined to the kennel. If someone buys and frees her, who was visiting Ti with her first owner, there, but the former owner is from another city and doesn't accept Ti law, does the girl have two legal statuses?

[08:38] Snow (malikai.alecto) is online.

[08:38] Sabayna (tremlays): Yes, it was a case, that haüppened in RP.

[08:39] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow): ah but see yuo say it there

[08:39] Snow (malikai.alecto) is offline.

[08:39] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow): Ti does not need to honor the outsiders law for it was not ti's laws; so she still be a slave

[08:39] Kaellaed Rhode: there would have to be some determination under merchant law the prior owner's papers are voided to free her status to be changed ownershp

[08:41] Dallin (dallinpink) is online.

[08:41] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow) would say noting to it, it a mens world; if the ubar or administrator (or council) of a city says she free in his city; then she be free; women in end are only free because men dean us worthy to be so.

[08:41] ꝀȺɌ (karisima.stein): aye

[08:41] Davor O'Donnell (davoroflaura): grins

[08:42] Davor O'Donnell (davoroflaura): right

[08:42] ꝀȺɌ (karisima.stein): nods nods

[08:42] Kaellaed Rhode: that's taking the statement out of context

[08:42] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow): to the content where renegdes plays out

[08:43] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow): accidentally happening make no world engine law, figaban

[08:43] Sabayna (tremlays): Thank you, Fog, I will read Book 23 again.

[08:43] Davor O'Donnell (davoroflaura): a girl can be identified by her body measurements, as long as you have papers for her, you own her

[08:44] Kaellaed Rhode: merchant law is gor wide decided annually at sar dar fairs amoong merchants

[08:44] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow): merchant laws mre or less describe a set of rules to allow comerse bewtween two codiefied lands

[08:44] Sabayna (tremlays): Merchant law is international law.

[08:45] Davor O'Donnell (davoroflaura): the detail is amazing

[08:45] ꝀȺɌ (karisima.stein): Merchants want power

[08:45] ꝀȺɌ (karisima.stein): grins

[08:46] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow): then they simply get no commerce, no outside merchant; foods, exciotics, slaves; animals.

[08:47] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow): as the most important part of merchant law is, to say how mush someting is worth, what a coin is worth from city x, in city y

[08:47] Kaellaed Rhode: the merchants impose a condition, abide by merchant law or we ostrazie you adn you get only what commerce you can at home or by outlaws

[08:48] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow) nods; value

[08:49] Chesnakov of Ar (art.chesnokov) is online.

[08:49] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow): the merchant law does nto protect you however, from raids, atatcks or the likes; the merchant law marly save guards what value somtign has you own, and seek to sell elswhere

[08:51] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow): no law says they are not welcome there

[08:53] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow): right of honor there; if people honor the men dooing so then it be so, steel talks in end,. if however he is not recognised as a strong men in said situation and a stronger mens claims this be not happening; then the sword will decide the outcome.

[08:53] Second Life: A group member named abrahamjacobs2 gave you Schedule and landmark.

[08:53] Second Life: A group member named abrahamjacobs2 gave you Schedule and landmark.

[08:54] Freya Hedwig (sparklingjewelri) is online.

[08:55] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow): lol

[08:55] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow): and jewlers out a job

[08:55] Sabayna (tremlays): There is another example, Aphris of Turia. Kamchak quickly put a collar on her in her house, but it was removed again. Aphris only later became an Aklavin during the Love Wars.

[08:56] Sabayna (tremlays): slave+

[08:56] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow): well more the heat in her (or his

[08:56] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow): belly marks him or her as slave lol





[08:57] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow): yes well.. same for slave wine; we after x bookd sdeside oh to many women disagree lets make noble wine to..

[08:58] Kaellaed Rhode: and for a long time only 25, i recall the first dozen in the 60s and 70s, pulp soft porn with ufo

[08:58] Fogaban: She throws back her hood and tears away her veils, and her mouth is exposed to the conqueror. "La kajira!" she cries. "I am a slave girl!" This formula, once spoken, is irrevocable. She is then a self-pronounced slave.

Smugglers of Gor Book 32 Pages 347 – 348

[08:58] Chesnakov of Ar (art.chesnokov) is offline.

[08:59] Kaellaed Rhode: yep, but doesn't it have to be to an owner?

[08:59] Kaellaed Rhode: so the first that grabs her owns her, that is a great risk

[08:59] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow): it then to the city, or establishment where she shouts it; to take her legally

[09:00] Kaellaed Rhode: or he could kill her instead

[09:00] Fogaban: "As you are a barbarian," I said, "you may not understand the ways of Gor. Let me give you an illustration. If a free woman should pronounce herself a slave, she is, then, instantly, no longer a free woman but a slave. Pretending, thinking she is lying, mental reservation, and such things, do not enter into the matter. Once the words are spoken she is a slave. Even if she lacks a Master, she is a slave. Do you understand?"

Avengers of Gor Book 36 Page 117




[09:01] Kaellaed Rhode: these are words of effect, like the "I do" in marriage, words of effect seal the deal

[09:01] Fogaban: Book 38, Treasure of Gor, has even more to say on this topic.

"He will have relinquished your ownership, as instructed," said the driver. "You are a slave between Masters."

"How can that be?" I asked.

"One who can be literally, legally, seized, claimed, captured, and sold, such things," he said.

"How is it that I am placed in such a status?" I asked.

"Presumably," said he, "to obscure antecedents an·tuh·see·dnts, to cover a trail, to make it harder to trace you. It will be as though you, a slave, had appeared from nowhere, susceptible to being claimed by anyone."

[09:02] Fogaban: "At the moment then," he said, "you are an unclaimed slave."

"I am not sure I understand that status," I said.

"You can be claimed," he said, "by any free person."

"By a stranger, a passer-by, a child?" I asked.

"Yes," he said.

Treasure of Gor Book 38 Page 438

[09:03] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow): is why we put those slaves in a seperated room in a kenne; for she is unowned, but to be owned;

[09:03] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow): kennel*

[09:04] Kaellaed Rhode: veer

[09:05] Tyan Cabot (tyancabot) is online.

[09:06] Lysander Tyran is offline.

[09:06] ꝀȺɌ (karisima.stein): yes

[09:06] Davor O'Donnell (davoroflaura): nods

[09:07] Lysander Tyran is online.

[09:07] Tyan Cabot (tyancabot) entered chat range (11.78 m).

[09:07] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow): lol

[09:07] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow): holy grail of danincg

[09:08] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow): the particle pathhhsss

[09:10] Kaellaed Rhode: just wear a collar, otherwise, isn't she subject to random claiming

[09:10] Florence (flo.udimo) is online.

[09:10] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow): it a sollid worry; as in end,. only she who dares to be ouspoken enough usually finds them self in binds or lengthy arguments

[09:11] Kaellaed Rhode: that is super broad, honor has to be defined and first it would be in free context then slave

[09:11] Fogaban: https://www.thegoreancave.com/quotes/honor.php

[09:11] Davor O'Donnell (davoroflaura): thank you

[09:12] Kaellaed Rhode: Fog, I can see her anxiety in not wanting to go to a place in Gor SL without a collar, in her place I would too. she could have submitted to you gone in your collar and then you manumit her later.

[09:12] Kaellaed Rhode: see she had honor

[09:12] ꝀȺɌ (karisima.stein): Or maybe people not be quick to collar.

[09:12] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow): honor is in the eye of beholder, not to declare ones own self; and usually is granted to one, after one is no longer;

[09:13] Kaellaed Rhode: no teflon collar

[09:13] Kaellaed Rhode: oh Mews I disagree, honor has an objective standard, not my honor is mine and yours is yours

[09:13] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow): obviously yuo disagree

[09:13] Kaellaed Rhode smiles, "i am de fault disagreable.'

[09:14] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow): best example be Tarl Cabot; he was ina collar, was he called less honorable, after that fect ?

[09:14] Sabayna (tremlays): Doesn't slave honor mean that the slave doesn't accept being a slave? For example, the girl from Treve, who is to be exchanged for Talena in Book 1, retains her honor because she doesn't accept being a slave. The opposite is Talena herself, who loses her honor when she admits to being a slave in a letter to her father.

[09:14] Kaellaed Rhode: his submission was dishonoralbe to his caste, die over submit

[09:15] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow): can't defend ones honor when one be death sir; so that never an route to agree to; specialy as a warior

[09:15] لąʍҽʂ βօʂաҽӀӀ (james.eton) is offline.

[09:16] Kaellaed Rhode: to honor the code, death before dishonor, a hero dies once, a coward daily. I do not mean to call you or anyone a coward, it is rhetoric

[09:16] ꝀȺɌ (karisima.stein): maybe the slave has a bit of integrity .. not honor

[09:17] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow): indeed one could say; integrity

[09:17] Sabayna (tremlays): You are welcome, Fog

[09:17] Davor O'Donnell (davoroflaura): would be great

[09:18] Kaellaed Rhode: what was the crziest thing you did on Gor SL Fog, that can be stated in public

[09:18] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow): in those cases discworld helps us out :P “Take the universe and grind it down to the finest powder and sieve it through the finest sieve and then show me one atom of justice, one molecule of mercy. and yet... and yet you act as if there is some ideal order in the world, as if there is some... some rightness in the universe by which it may be judged.”

[09:18] CasperLet: This is a notification from the rental unit Teletus - 62 at Isle of Teletus (48,69,29): New tenant (Charlotte Spicer (charlottefrees) paid L$100), expires on Sat, 11th Oct, at 9:18 AM. This unit is rented by Charlotte Spicer (charlottefrees), and has 1 week, 6 days, 23 hours, 59 minutes, 52 seconds remaining.

[09:18] Becka (fogabansgirl) listens intently

[09:18] Kaellaed Rhode: The Story of the Yllow Bannana Suit, Fogaban

[09:18] bilingual (baby2die4) is offline.

[09:18] Arealius (arealius.barbosa) is offline.

[09:19] ꝀȺɌ (karisima.stein): I miss the raids.

[09:19] Kaellaed Rhode: that would take a long tiem

[09:19] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow): lol

[09:21] Kaellaed Rhode: you can't walk around shock with the cock




[09:21] Avery Bade (freyadragonborn) is offline.

[09:22] Kaellaed Rhode: OMG

[09:23] Kaellaed Rhode: bananna with wet hair and . . .

[09:23] Becka (fogabansgirl) shoulders are shaking with stifled laughter

[09:23] Sabayna (tremlays) smiles

[09:23] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow): why even get dressed you pick up a sword alone...

[09:24] ꝀȺɌ (karisima.stein): laughs

[09:24] Selia (violet325) is offline.

[09:24] Sabayna (tremlays): Aaaahhh

[09:24] Kaellaed Rhode: bananna ramma johnson rocking

[09:24] Kaellaed Rhode: were they on voice?

[09:24] Davor O'Donnell (davoroflaura): you beat them

[09:24] Kaellaed Rhode: omg what a riot

[09:25] Sabayna (tremlays): A great victory!

[09:25] Luv Aho is online.

[09:25] Kaellaed Rhode: the enemy left I am sure with that demo

[09:25] Kaellaed Rhode: they woudl have got an eyeful!!

[09:25] Kaellaed Rhode: ok that is a 10 of ten on crazy gor stories

[09:26] Kaellaed Rhode: Three Cheers for Fog!!

[09:27] Sabayna (tremlays): Thank you so much for your wonderful communication.

[09:27] Davor O'Donnell (davoroflaura): Thank you for this

[09:27] Charlotte Spicer (charlottefrees) is offline.

[09:27] Flo (floreo) is online.

[09:28] ꝀȺɌ (karisima.stein): The Debate was removed.

[09:28] Sabayna (tremlays) applauds.

[09:29] Trygg Tyran (tryggtyran): The Debate was removed?

[09:29] Trygg Tyran (tryggtyran): Whan did that happen and when was it announced?

[09:29] Sabayna (tremlays): On the way to the debate room you will find refreshments at the bar.

[09:29] Trygg Tyran (tryggtyran): What about the debate?

[09:30] ꝀȺɌ (karisima.stein) claps " Thank you, Fogban !

[09:30] Trygg Tyran (tryggtyran): Thank you Fog. Very interesting.

[09:30] ꝀȺɌ (karisima.stein): Was told the debate was cancelled

[09:30] ꝀȺɌ (karisima.stein): by Abraham

[09:30] Trygg Tyran (tryggtyran): Who told you?

[09:30] Trygg Tyran (tryggtyran): Abraham told you that?

[09:30] Trygg Tyran (tryggtyran): I see.. when did he tell you that?

[09:31] Davor O'Donnell (davoroflaura): Abraham posted in Scribe Caste of Gor * that Debate at 9 canceled