[13:00] Hermes (prinzensaft) shouts: One of the virtues of the scribes being precision, we start exactly now! Scribes, friends, visitors, three more hours of lectures coming up before the big closure ball here in the courtyard prepared by our incredible builder-slave Shao - with DJ Jay Sparrowtree from the Gorean Whip Radio! You will now hear me, still about astronomy, on the Gorean Moons, followed by the blessed Tariq on Initiate Law and then by Victoria Forstander on Ubarate vs Tatrixate...
[13:01] Reese Kismyaz-ʙʟᴀᴄᴋʙᴜʀɴ (keeperofthezoo) is offline.
[13:01] Hermes (prinzensaft) shouts: Trygg! dont make me shout all the time!
[13:01] Hermes (prinzensaft): The moons of Gor! What beauty in the night sky!
[13:02] Hermes (prinzensaft): Standing there in the night adoring them I have often wondered about them, about their names, their speed, their relation to each other.
[13:02] Hermes (prinzensaft): Here is what I once saw looking up from the Northern woods.
[13:03] Hermes (prinzensaft): I want to share some of these reflections about the Gorean moons with you, based on what is written in the books and using our astronomical knowledge. As we will see, none of these pictures relates much to the reality of the Gorean moons.
[13:03] Reese Kismyaz-ʙʟᴀᴄᴋʙᴜʀɴ (keeperofthezoo) is online.
[13:03] Hermes (prinzensaft): Some conclusions that I draw may be rather new, but maybe others have already come up with them in the past, we'll see...
[13:03] Hermes (prinzensaft): I want to talk more or less about the followings topics in relation to the moons:
1. Moons' names and appearances
2. A Trojan relation
3. Orbit times
4. Full moons abundance
5. The rapidity riddle
[13:03] Hermes (prinzensaft): As we all know, the Earth has one moon and Gor has three.
[13:04] Hermes (prinzensaft): It is not unusual for a planet to have more than one moon.
On this picture you see the major moons of the Solar System's planets to scale:
[13:04] Hermes (prinzensaft): Some planets like Mercury and Venus have no moons at all, the outermost planet Pluto, about the size of the Earth moon Luna, also has only one named Charon.
[13:05] Yoshida Ahiratsu (serenity.spiritor) is online.
[13:05] Hermes (prinzensaft): But as you see, many planets have plenty of moons : Mars 2, Jupiter 4, Saturn about 10 and so on
[13:06] Hermes (prinzensaft): Our neighbor planet Mars, smaller than Gor, has two tiny ones: Deimos and Phobos.
[13:06] Hermes (prinzensaft): The big gas giants have some as big as a small planet or even bigger. Jupiter's moons Ganymed and Titan are bigger than the planet Mercury. Pluto is smaller than most moons of Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus or Neptune.
[13:06] Hermes (prinzensaft): <<< 1. Names and aspects
[13:07] Hermes (prinzensaft): So let's see about the size and coloration of the Gorean moons.
[13:07] Hermes (prinzensaft): But before that, let's start by finding their names.
Generally, the Gorean moons are described as small in the books, so they should all be smaller than the Earth Moon that I will call Luna in the following.
"observations such as the shadow of their planet on one or another of Gor's three small moons during eclipses" (Tarnsman of Gor Book 1 Page 41)
[13:07] Hermes (prinzensaft): Among the three, according to an observation in book 5, one seems to be big and the other two small:
"[Tarl] looked up and saw the three moons of Gor, the large moon and the two small ones, one of the latter called the Prison Moon, for no reason I understood." (Assassin of Gor, book 5, Page 170)
[13:07] aria (nabila.daffyd) is online.
[13:08] Hermes (prinzensaft): < 1.1 The grayish Prison Moon
In any case, the smallest moon is called the Prison moon. It has only some pasangs or kilometers in size, such that, even though being the moon closest to Gor, it is often hard to perceive even in good weather conditions (Book 28, p.21, 88).
"They must know the security of the Prison Moon has been breached. How long does it take to bring ships to this orbit, with their technology, the closest of the three moons?" (Kur of Gor Book 28 Page 88)
[13:08] Tove Kailiauk-Skovgard (noria.lavender) is offline.
[13:08] Hermes (prinzensaft): The Prison Moon is the closest one to Gor.
As we also learn in book 28 the story of which starts on this moon, it is an artificial satellite used by the Priest-Kings as prison, hence its name.
[13:09] Hermes (prinzensaft): Despite its small size, it has considerable gravity, for the gravity on the Prison Moon is set to that of Gor:
"Indeed, our story [...] begins, in its way, on a moon of Gor, one of its three moons, and its smallest, that called the 'Prison Moon'." (Kur of Gor Book 28 Page 9)
[13:09] Hermes (prinzensaft): "The gravity in the venue, the Prison Moon, was currently indexed to that of its mother world, Gor, to which it was a satellite. We are not clear, given the small size of the moon, a mere several pasangs in diameter, how this was managed." (Kur of Gor Book 28 Page 21)
[13:09] Hermes (prinzensaft): A several pasangs... we may conclude that is has certainly less than 10 pasangs in diameter, probably less than 5, hence less than 5 resp. 2.5 pasangs radius. Luna has a radius of c. 6'700 pasangs, being 3000 times as large!
[13:10] Hermes (prinzensaft): The Prison Moon is described as grayish at dawn and dusk:
"It [the Prison Moon] had a grayish look at dawn and dusk, almost, interestingly, as though it might be a sphere of metal, and not a natural moon." Mariners of Gor Book 30 Pages 195 - 196
[13:10] Hermes (prinzensaft): The following passage confirms the conjecture of the Prison Moon being of metal by mentioning a shielding of the Prison Moon:
"They cannot stay here long, thought Cabot. This breach of the Prison World must be detectable in the Sardar. They must, after sealing themselves to it, or by means of protective gear of some sort, doubtless to be reassumed later, have burned through a lock, or even the shielding of the satellite. In any event Cabot had little doubt but what Priest-Kings would even now be apprised of the presence of unauthorized Kurii in the Prison Moon." (Kur of Gor Book 28 Page 84)
[13:11] Hermes (prinzensaft): That much for the Prison Moon which is quite tiny and very close to Earth, sometimes even not detectable in the sky despite its presence.
[13:12] Hermes (prinzensaft): < 1.2. The Yellow Moon and the White Moon
[13:12] Hermes (prinzensaft): About the two larger moons, we find incoherent information in the books.
In the first books, all moons are described as white and only one as large.
[13:12] Hermes (prinzensaft): "the white moons above" (3, p.317),
"the three white moons of Gor" (4, p.177),
"The stars over the city were clear and bright, the coursing moons white with splendor against the black space of the Gorean night." (5, p.172),
"I looked up at the large, white, swift moons. There were three of them, a larger, and two smaller, looming, dominating." (8, p.137),
"the three white, dominating moons of Gor, were now rearing over the tree tops." (8, p.194),
"the mingled light of the three white moons." (12, p.78)
[13:12] Lib (liberace57) is online.
[13:13] Hermes (prinzensaft): This changes in the latter books. From book 29 onwards, one moon is described as yellow, which leads to the naming of the moons as Yellow Moon, White Moon and Prison Moon.
[13:13] Hermes (prinzensaft): "The light of the yellow moon, high to my right, broke through some clouds." (Swordsmen of Gor, Book 29, p. 448)
"I saw its silhouette briefly against the yellow moon." (Mariners of Gor Book 30 Page 80)
"The yellow moon was no longer obscured by clouds." (Plunder of Gor Book 34 Page 194)
[13:13] Tariq ibn Joshao al Samini (kitten.serpente) entered chat range (11.87 m).
[13:13] Hermes (prinzensaft): From book 35 onwards, the description as yellow or white is used to name them, as the capitals indicate:
"Both the White Moon and Yellow Moon were in the sky." (Quarry of Gor Book 35 Page 248)
"The Yellow Moon was now well in the sky." (Avengers of Gor Book 36 Page 275)
"I lay there, on my chain, looking up at the three moons, the White Moon, the Yellow Moon, and the tiny Prison Moon."
(Treasure of Gor Book 38 Page 35)
[13:14] Zoe Corta (zoe.starling) is offline.
[13:14] Bea Lael (lifepath) entered chat range (19.38 m).
[13:14] Hermes (prinzensaft): So there is the tiny prison moon of only some pasangs diameter, and a yellow and a white moon of which one is big and the other smaller, but we do not know which one is bigger, the yellow or the white one.
[13:14] Bea Lael (lifepath): me ((oops sorry)
[13:15] Hermes (prinzensaft): It is also in the very recent books that we learn more about the two bigger ones:
"In Gorean folklore, the yellow moon is commonly thought of as feminine and the white moon as masculine, possibly because the yellow moon is thought to be more beautiful or because the white moon seems to follow, or pursue, the yellow moon." (Warriors of Gor Book 37 Page 248)
[13:15] Hermes (prinzensaft): This is a quite interesting passage!
[13:15] Hermes (prinzensaft): In addition, in parts of the Southern hemisphere, the Yellow moon is also called Tabuk Moon and the white one Sleen Moon. As the Sleen hunts the Tabuk, the white moon follows the yellow moon:
"Sometimes, particularly in the southern hemisphere, the yellow moon is referred to as the Tabuk Moon, possibly from the yellow pelt of the Tabuk, and the white moon as the Sleen Moon, possibly because it seems to trail, or follow, the yellow moon." (Warriors of Gor Book 37 Page 248)
[13:16] Hermes (prinzensaft): Tabuks and sleens are of comparable size, while the Prison Moon seems to be of termite size in comparison. Even though described as small in book 1, they are all big enough to impress by their view in the sky, and they also, at least the largest of them, big enough to create tides:
[13:16] Hermes (prinzensaft): "I wondered at the things she said to me for they seemed strange, perhaps more so to my ears than they would have to one bred and raised from infancy as a Gorean, one as much accustomed to the submission of women as to the tides of the gleaming Thassa or the phases of the three moons."
Priest-Kings of Gor Book 3 Page 204
[13:17] Divine (amalie.sable) is online.
[13:17] Hermes (prinzensaft): But let us have a look now at their positions relative to each other as described in the books.
<<< 2. A Trojan relation
[13:17] Hermes (prinzensaft): This is about the Yellow and the White Moon and their relation.
According to Books 37 and 38 the White and Yellow Moon are usually seen together, the Yellow Moon commonly appearing first, followed by the White Moon.
[13:17] Hermes (prinzensaft): "Dawn was still some Ahn in the offing, but the now-present, gibbous white moon brightened the fog, the yellow moon having fled the sky. Commonly both moons were visible or not at the same time. [...] Gor's third moon, the tiny moon spoken of the Prison Moon, which I had once learned was an artificial satellite, was not visible." (Warriors of Gor Book 37 Page 248)
"The Yellow Moon had now been joined by the White Moon in the sky." (Treasure of Gor Book 38 Page 305)
[13:17] Ella De Wren Bade (elladewren) is online.
[13:18] Sʜɪsʜɪ Vᴇʀᴠs Eɴᴠʏ.K (crazydivina) is online.
[13:18] Hermes (prinzensaft): We may start from the following facts:
a) The White Moon or Sleen Moon always seems to trail the Yellow Moon or Tabuk Moon.
b) One is bigger than the other, but we do not know if the yellow or the white one is the big moon.
c) We do not know how much smaller the smaller of the two bigger moons is.
[13:19] Hermes (prinzensaft): It seems to be a riddle: How is it possible that one moon always seems to follow the other? Is this even possible according to the laws of nature?
[13:19] ꜱʜɪʀ ᴊᴀʜᴀɴ (shirjahan): yes
[13:19] Hermes (prinzensaft): If they are close together, do they not have to turn around one another? Luna for example does not follow the earth on its orbit, but turns around it. So should the smaller moon not turn around the larger? If that were the case, it would not be seen, from the surface of Gor, as always following the big one, but would be sometimes ahead of it, sometimes behind, sometimes possibly behind it and sometimes in front of it.
[13:20] Hermes (prinzensaft): How can one of the moons seem to follow the other? Do we have to assume that the Priest-Kings are doing this? For what reason?
[13:20] Hermes (prinzensaft): But there is one natural solution that explains it quite easily! In order to do this, we need a bit of astronomical knowledge about the so-called Lagrange points, discovered by the French mathematician and astronomer Joseph-Louis Lagrange in 1788.
[13:20] Hermes (prinzensaft): This is a partial solution of the notorious 3-Body Problem that has no general solution like the 2-Body-Problem. But for some cases of the 3- body problem that are relatively frequent there is a solution:
[13:21] Hermes (prinzensaft): If of two big bodies, one is at least 25 times heavier than the other (which is the case for Sun and Earth or for Earth and Luna, and also for Gor and its biggest moon), there are two points on the orbit of the smaller one that constitute a stable equilibrium for anything that finds itself there - meaning, it is hard to leave that spot. These two points are 60 degrees ahead and behind the smaller body.
[13:22] Hermes (prinzensaft): I bet this takes a bit to be digested?
[13:23] BB Arliss (busybee.ashbourne) is online.
[13:23] Kiki Silverclaw-Jacobson (elphaba.jinxing) is offline.
[13:23] ꜱʜɪʀ ᴊᴀʜᴀɴ (shirjahan): Is this with the smaller orbiting the larger? or orbiting Gor? As I have a theory for this
[13:23] Hermes (prinzensaft): if you look at the picture and imagine the central body being the sun, and to the forefront being Gor, then there are two zones on the orbit of Gor, named here L4 and L5, where any smaller bodies can remain
[13:24] zCS # [Mod] shaoleen Kimono switched from [OOC] to [RP].
[13:24] Ṥḧḁṍ (shaoleen.kimono) entered chat range (17.35 m).
[13:24] Hermes (prinzensaft): these are zones where bodies that are considerably smaller than Gor, will orbit around the sun as well
[13:24] shaoleen Kimono en>en: shtower
[13:25] Hermes (prinzensaft): this also holds if now you imagine the central body being Gor, and between L1 and L2 you have the biggest moon
[13:25] Hermes (prinzensaft): the second largest moon then would have a stable orbit 60 degrees in front or behind the biggest moon
[13:25] Iskander Jorgensson (dramirak) is offline.
[13:25] Ṥḧḁṍ (shaoleen.kimono) waves to his beloved master and smiles hearing him focused on the explenations.
[13:25] Hermes (prinzensaft): The gravitational forces of the planet and the sun as well as the centrifugal force cancel each other out at these points, so that a body located there can remain at rest without any forces acting on it.
[13:26] Hermes (prinzensaft): The L4 and L5 points are stable points, meaning that they have a tendency to pull objects into them. Due to the natural stability of L4 and L5, it is common for natural objects to be found orbiting the big body in those Lagrange points. These objects are called 'trojans' - they may be just dust or big pebbles, asteroids or moons.
[13:26] Kaysie Michigan is online.
[13:26] Hermes (prinzensaft): Trojans appear naturally. Earth science names those on the L4 point, running ahead, after Greek characters in the Iliad - referred to as the "Greek camp" - while those at the L5 point are named after Trojan characters - referred to as the "Trojan camp". But both camps are considered to be types of trojan bodies.
[13:27] Hermes (prinzensaft): Saturn's moon Tethys for example has two trojans, the smaller moons Telesto and Calypso on its L4 and L5 points, one preceding it and one following it on its orbit.
[13:27] Hermes (prinzensaft): The same holds for another Saturn moon: Dione also has two Lagrange trojans: Helene (from the Greek camp) preceding at L4 and Polydeuces (from the Trojan camp) trailing at L5.
[13:28] Hermes (prinzensaft): So to get back to our case of the White and Yellow Moon of Gor, they may well be on the same orbit, 60 degrees apart (in an angle viewed from Gor) - one being the trojan of the other.
[13:28] Hermes (prinzensaft): Condition check:
This solution implies that the biggest moon is not heavier than one 25th or 4 % of the mass of Gor.
[13:29] Hermes (prinzensaft): The planet Venus with a 0.9 Earth gravity (that should correspond to Gor's gravity) has 0.8 earth masses (4'900 compared to 6'000 x 10potence21 for Earth) and 0.95 earth radius. Divided by 25 this gives c. 200 units). Ganymede has 150 with 0.4 Earth radius. the Earth Moon has 73 with 0.27 earth radius.
[13:29] Hermes (prinzensaft): Since we know that the biggest Gorean Moon is smaller than the Earth Moon, we may conclude that for the biggest Gorean moon this relation also holds for sure.
[13:29] Kaysie Michigan is offline.
[13:30] Hermes (prinzensaft): The other condition to be met is that the moon on the L4 or L5 position does not exceed a certain size.
[13:30] Hermes (prinzensaft): If it did, the constellation wouldn't be stable. In order to have a relatively stable constellation, the trailing or fleeing moon must in any case have a mass smaller than a tenth of the mass of the bigger moon. This means that it's diameter is below half the size of the bigger moon, better even lower. let's say a third.
[13:30] Hermes (prinzensaft): We are then confronted with two possibilities: the smaller Moon can flee or trail the bigger one.
[13:31] Hermes (prinzensaft): As we know that the second one is the white one, there are the following possibilities:
The yellow Tabuk Moon is the biggest moon and the white Sleen moon follows in an angle of 60 degrees.
[13:31] Hermes (prinzensaft): Or the white Sleen Moon is the biggest moon and is chasing the yellow Tabuk moon that runs 60 degrees ahead.
[13:31] Luella (lilith.lindley) entered chat range (19.20 m).
[13:31] Hermes (prinzensaft): I claim that this relation between the two bigger moons maps well what is written in the books, and that it is the only solution to give sense to the quoted passages.
[13:32] Hermes (prinzensaft): If this is correct, what does it mean for the view of the moons in the sky? One thing is for sure: They are never further apart than 60 degrees. The rising yellow moon will only be alone for a third of its passage through the sky (let us suppose of overall 180 degrees), then joined by the white moon which will in turn pass the last third of its journey without the yellow one.
[13:32] Hermes (prinzensaft): They are also never closer than 60 degrees, which means that pictures like the following are not realistic:
[13:32] Lađγ Lïv Thε Hσŋεγ Mεŗcɧanŧ (cherry.rabbit) is online.
[13:32] Sʜɪsʜɪ Vᴇʀᴠs Eɴᴠʏ.K (crazydivina) is offline.
[13:33] Hermes (prinzensaft): This was the first part about their constellation. I now question the moons' speed.
[13:33] Hermes (prinzensaft): 3. Orbit time of the bigger moons
3.1 Tabuk and Sleen Moon
[13:33] Hermes (prinzensaft): A month on earth corresponds approximately to the time the moon takes for one orbit around the Earth (c. 28.5 days).
On Gor as well, lunar months are known, taken to be the length of the biggest moon's orbit:
"One lunar month from this date, by the phases of the largest moon [...]"
Slave Girl of Gor Book 11 Page 113
[13:34] K A E L A (yenniferrivia) is offline.
[13:34] Hermes (prinzensaft): If on Earth we divide one year into 12 months, this is because of the Moon whose orbit fits into a year approximately 12 times. If the common calendar of Gor also divides the year into 12 months, this is probably an import of the humans that were brought to Gor from Earth, for the Gorean moons orbit faster and cannot be the reason for the division of the year into 12 months or "moons".
[13:34] Hermes (prinzensaft): We know that because in some regions of Gor, a different counting was established inspired by the phases of the biggest Moon, and they count 15 revolutions of the big moon in one year:
[13:35] Hermes (prinzensaft): "[...] the women of the Wagon Peoples, incidentally, keep a calendar based on the phases of Gor's largest moon, but this is a calendar of fifteen moons, named for the fifteen varieties of bosk, and functions independently of the tallying of years by snows; for example, the Moon of the Brown Bosk may at one time occur in the winter, at another time, years later, in the summer; this calendar is kept by a set of colored pegs set in the sides of some wagons, on one of which, depending on the moon, a round, wooden plate bearing the image of a bosk is fixed."
(Nomads of Gor Book 4 Page 12)
[13:35] Hermes (prinzensaft): From these passages we may calculate the time the largest moon takes on its orbit around Gor. Since it is trailed or fled by the second big one on the same orbit, this one takes the same time.
[13:35] Hermes (prinzensaft): The quoted passage tells us that the biggest moon turns about 15 times around Gor in one year. This is not exact, such that the same month will shift from wintertime to summertime within years, but it is sufficient to estimate the big moon's orbit.
[13:36] Hermes (prinzensaft): In any case it must be faster as the Earth moon if it turns around Gor 15 times a year instead of 12. It is thus approximately 15/12 = 5/4 = 1.25 times faster.
[13:36] Hermes (prinzensaft): A year is not exactly 12 lunar months, but 12.37, a lunar month being 29.53 earth days. The 15 times will be equally approximative, but let us be as exact as possible where we can and take a ratio of 15/12.37 = 1.21 or 6/5.
[13:36] Riker (runningman5) is online.
[13:37] Hermes (prinzensaft): If the Earth Moon takes 29.53 days around Earth, the largest Moon of Gor will thus take c. 24.4 days (29.53/1.21) around Gor.
[13:37] Hermes (prinzensaft): To calculate differently and more simply: a Gorean year having 365.25 days, it's orbit time should be around 365.25 : 15 = 24.35 Earth days.
[13:37] Hermes (prinzensaft): But we should not be too exact and give or take a couple days to account for the shift of the months around the year.
[13:38] Hermes (prinzensaft): Considering the fact that full moons appear so frequently on Gor, it is rather probable that the orbit is faster, somewhat below 24 days, maybe 20.
[13:38] Hermes (prinzensaft): With 4 days difference per turn, that would give us 60 days difference in a year or two months. So the same month, say in spring, would in the next year appear 2 months later, in summer.
[13:38] ᴛʀᴀsʜ ʙᴀᴛ (aspen.candyclaws) is offline.
[13:38] Raven (flowergirlsdeath) is online.
[13:38] Hermes (prinzensaft): With one day difference, say around 23 days or real orbit time, we'd get a more modest delay of half a month that seems more realistic.
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[13:38] zCS # [Mod] Delly Resident [RP] logged into the region.
[13:38] Hermes (prinzensaft): 3.2 The Prison Moon
The Prison moon seems to be independent of the two big moons. It is described as the closest moon, and Its orbit must be MUCH closer so that it is possible to be even seen from Gor, given its tiny size of some pasangs. As the closeness to Gor increases its orbit speed considerably, it will therefore find itself in many different constellations relative to the bigger moons.
[13:39] Riker (runningman5) is offline.
[13:39] Hermes (prinzensaft): Just to give an idea: if the big moons orbit around Gor within 23 days, and the Prison moon is at a third of their distance, it would turn in 4.4 days (if at a quarter, it would take only 2.9 days).
[13:39] Phoebe Thiessam is offline.
[13:39] Hermes (prinzensaft): This means that within one orbit of the big moons of 23 days, the prison moon orbits 5 times. It can thus easily find itself on the same side as them when they are full, being full as well.
[13:40] Hermes (prinzensaft): These constellations can explain why we so often see all three moons together in the sky, although it is also possible to see only one or two.
"The night before, I had ridden over fields of grain, silvery yellow beneath me in the light of the three moons."
Tarnsman of Gor Book 1 Page 73
"... the three hurtling moons of Gor broke from the dark cover of the clouds."
Outlaw of Gor Book 2 Page 33
[13:40] Raven (flowergirlsdeath) is offline.
[13:40] Hermes (prinzensaft): But they are not always together. It happens that only one or two or none at all are to be seen.
"I could see two of the three moons of this world."
Kajira of Gor Book 19 Page 82
"clouds obscured the two moons then in the sky"
Mariners of Gor Book 30 Page 62
"Two of the three moons were in the sky, occasionally visible through the clouds, the white and yellow moons. The smallest moon could not be detected, and it was not always easy to note, even under better conditions. The smallest moon is called the Prison Moon." (Plunder of Gor Book 34 Page 287)
"The three moons were full, and beautiful."
Blood Brothers of Gor Book 18 Page 394
[13:41] Hermes (prinzensaft): All three moons can be full at the same time according to the books! Let us check their phases!
<<< 4. Full moons
[13:41] Hermes (prinzensaft): "The three moons were full." (Dancer of Gor Book 22 Page 427)
"The moons were full." (Witness of Gor Book 26 Page 253)
[13:41] Riker (runningman5) is online.
[13:41] Hermes (prinzensaft): As often as the moons are described as full in the books, you ask yourself if they are stationary. This would be impossible, for then they would fall down - unless kept in place by some of the gravitational devices of the Priest-Kings.
[13:41] Hermes (prinzensaft): But we may exclude this option, for the moons do indeed have phases:
"Sometimes he pointed to the largest of the three moons above, in a few days it would be full." Slave Girl of Gor Book 11 Page 88
"The largest of the three moons was now full." Slave Girl of Gor Book 11 Page 109
[13:42] Riker (runningman5) is offline.
[13:42] Hermes (prinzensaft): That their phases are different is indeed confirmed in the books:
"From our camp we could see two of the moons of Gor, the white moon and the yellow moon. The white moon was full and the yellow moon gibbous. Gor's third moon, the tiny "Prison Moon" was not in the sky." (Warriors of Gor Book 37 Page 429)
"The night was cloudy and the white moon, the only moon in the sky, was no more than a slim crescent. The joke was that it was a "slaver's moon." On such nights, guardsmen are especially alert." (Warriors of Gor Book 37 Page 440)
"On Gor, given the three moons, and the differences in their phases, moonlight was frequent." (Kur of Gor, Book 28, p.314)
[13:43] Hermes (prinzensaft): This observation in book 28 makes sense on the described background: when during one night on Earth, there is only one moon, in one night on Gor there is a longer period during which there is one moon, and for a third of that night there are even two big moons. In addition, there might even be the Prison Moon.
[13:43] Hermes (prinzensaft): But let us check the phases. If two moons are on the same orbit, do they not have to be in the same phase? This is not necessarily the case. If one is trailing the other on the same orbit with 60 degrees delay, their phases are linked but not identical.
[13:43] ᴛʀᴀsʜ ʙᴀᴛ (aspen.candyclaws) is online.
[13:43] Hermes (prinzensaft): It is rather rare that they are both full, but this is also possible. And it can only be seen at night!
[13:44] Hermes (prinzensaft): And since the Prison moon is so speedy, it shouldn't be too rare that all three moons are full at the same time, which means that they are together on the same side of Gor opposite the sun.
[13:44] Hermes (prinzensaft): "It was midnight, in the cell. Outside, the three moons were full. [following the visit of Tarl Cabot in his Nine Wells prison cell by the salt ubar Ibn Saran and their conversation about the kajira Vella]
[...] He turned, cloak swirling, and left the chamber, followed by his men, the last bearing the tharlarion-oil lamp. Outside the three moons were full."
(Tribesmen of Gor, book 10, ch. 7, section 3)
[13:45] Ṥḧḁṍ (shaoleen.kimono): tant mieux pour les panthères *glousse*
[13:45] shaoleen Kimono fr>en: So much the better for panthers *chuckle *
[13:45] Hermes (prinzensaft): Strangely enough, many pages and days later in this passage of book 10, the moons are still full - or again? It is impossible that it is only days later given that the Gorean moons orbit faster than Luna. So it must be after they have completed their orbit about 23 days later.
[13:46] Hermes (prinzensaft): "In the night I prepared to bury the Kur. I dug a trench in the sand. I waited for it to die. I regretted that there would be no stone with which to mark the grave. When the moons were full, he put back his head and I saw the rows of fangs. To my horror he struggled again to his feet, and, shaking the sand from his body, took up again the march. In awe I followed it." (book 10, ch. 21 - What Occurred in the Dune Country, p. 324).
[13:46] Hermes (prinzensaft): The three moons being full together seems to be a regular annual event, at least seen from Ar in spring at planting time.
[13:46] Hermes (prinzensaft): "Lastly, as the culmination of Ar's Planting Feast, and of the greatest importance to the plan of the Council of Ko-ro-ba, a member of the Ubar's family goes to the roof at night, under the three full moons with which the feast is correlated, and casts grain upon the stone and drops of a red winelike drink made from the fruit of the Ka-la-na tree." Tarnsman of Gor Book 1 Page 68
[13:47] Hermes (prinzensaft): Grain is planted between March and May on Earth, which would be in the first two months on Gor, En'Kara and Hesius in Ar, during which full moons might occur up to 3 times (a month having 30 days).
[13:47] Kaiko Mikoto (luelar.edwyn) is online.
[13:47] Charlotte Spicer (charlottefrees) is online.
[13:47] Hermes (prinzensaft): Last topic!
[13:47] Hermes (prinzensaft): <<< 5. The rapidity riddle
[13:48] shaoleen Kimono st>en: shunleash
[13:48] Hermes (prinzensaft): But let us have a look at something even more intriguing - you might have remarked it already in the quotes: the speed of the moons in the sky. The moons are often described as swift, rushing, hurtling or coursing, at least in the early books:
"... in the light of the three rushing moons of Gor." Outlaw of Gor Book 2 Page 168
"... under the three hurtling moons of Gor ..." Priest-Kings of Gor Book 3 Page 19
"Outlined against the largest of Gor's three hurtling moons was the black silhouette, as sharp and keen as a knife, of a Priest-King." Priest-Kings of Gor Book 3 Page 310
"The stars over the city were clear and bright, the coursing moons white with splendor against the black space of the Gorean night." (5, p.172)
"I looked up at the large, white, swift moons. There were three of them, a larger, and two smaller, looming, dominating." (8, p.137),
"the swift lamps of the three Gorean moons."
Hunters of Gor Book 8 Page 255
[13:48] Hermes (prinzensaft): If the moons are rushing or hurtling across the sky faster than Luna in Earth's night sky, this has to mean that the planet Gor rotates faster than Earth! It would also mean that the sun would have to rush across the sky faster as on Earth. In fact, the Gorean day would have to be shorter than a day on Earth.
[13:49] Hermes (prinzensaft): Let us have a look at what that would mean.
<<< 1 Earthday = time it takes for Earth to turn around itself (rotation period)
[13:49] Hermes (prinzensaft): A preliminary remark: the basic unit has historically been the day.
The day is divided into 24 hours. Each hour has 60 minutes. And each minute has 60 seconds.
Thus, the second is historically defined as 1⁄86'400 of a day (24 × 60 × 60 = 86'400).
[13:50] Hermes (prinzensaft): "Minute" comes from the Latin 'pars minuta prima', meaning "first small part" i.e. first division of the hour - dividing into sixty, and "second" comes from the 'pars minuta secunda', "second small part", dividing again into sixty. The term second indicates that this is the second division of the hour.
[13:50] Hermes (prinzensaft): Nowadays, in modern times on Earth, the second has become the basic unit, measured by the frequency of the caesium atom.
This current definition was adopted in 1967 when it became feasible to define the second based on fundamental properties of nature with caesium clocks. So the second is a fixed lap of time now.
[13:50] Hermes (prinzensaft): Because the speed of Earth's rotation varies and is slightly slowing down, a leap second is added at irregular intervals to civil time to keep clocks in sync with Earth's rotation.
[13:51] Hermes (prinzensaft): For our behalf it is important to know that on Gor we must assume the Gorean day as basic unit.
But how can we know how long it is?
Unfortunately, the passages in the book are not coherent. They lead to two different theories, as Fogaban has already stated.
[13:51] Hermes (prinzensaft): << Fast Gorean rotation theory:
The following is stated in the books:
"The Gorean day consists of twenty Ahn; the Gorean Ahn, or hour, of forty Ehn, or minutes; the Ehn consists of eighty Ihn, or seconds. An Ihn is slightly less than an Earth second." (Tribesmen of Gor, Book 10, p. 352)
For reasons of simplicity, we'll speak of hours, minutes and seconds only when referring to Earth, and of ahn, ehn and ihn when speaking of Gorean measures.
[13:52] Hermes (prinzensaft): On Earth a day (d) is 24 hours x 60 = 1440 minutes x 60 = 86'400 seconds
A Gorean day (gd) is 20 ahn x 40 = 800 ehn x 80 = 64'000 ihn
[13:52] Hermes (prinzensaft): If one ihn were one second, then 64'000 ihn would be 1067 minutes or 17.8 hours.
That would be the maximum duration of rotation. But an ihn is "slightly less" than a second, according to the quote.
[13:52] Hermes (prinzensaft): If 64'000 ihn are say, 60'000 seconds, which is the case if 1 ihn = 0.9375 s, the result is 6'000 minutes or 16.6 hours.
If one Ihn is 0.9 seconds, one Gorean day has exactly 16 hours. For reasons of simplicity, let us suppose this duration.
It means that one Gorean day has only 2 thirds of the length of the Earth day!
[13:53] Hermes (prinzensaft): On this basis, we arrive at the following relations:
1 ihn 0.9 s <<< basic correlation
1 ehn = 80 ihn 72 s = 1 min. and 12 s
1 ahn = 40 ehn 48 min.
1 gd = 20 ahn 16 h
In the other direction:
1 s 1.11 ihn
1 min = 60 s 0.83 ehn (66.67 ihn)
1 h = 60 min 50 ehn
1 d =24 h 30 ahn (1200 ehn)
[13:53] Hermes (prinzensaft): Fogaban notes the following argument based on the phenomena observed in the books:
"But nowhere in the series is anything like this mentioned. It would only stand to reason that a difference as significant as a Gorean day lasting only 15½ Earth hours would have been mentioned at least once."
[13:53] Hermes (prinzensaft): I completely agree.
[13:54] Hermes (prinzensaft): This phenomenological reason is to be taken seriously, but there is a more decisive one against this length of the Gorean day.
[13:54] Hermes (prinzensaft): << Same day Theory: 1 Earth day = 1 Gorean day
The Same-Day-Theory is primarily supported by the following passage:
"The Gorean Ihn, or second, is only a little longer than the Earth second." (Nomads of Gor, Book 4, Page 222)
[13:54] Melampus (godhet): 16 hours. Not much for an 8-hour workday.
[13:54] Hermes (prinzensaft): This is in flagrant contradiction of what is said in Book 10. Fortunately, other passages point in the same direction. For example, the ahn has to be longer than the hour, and not shorter:
"The working day is fifteen Gorean Ahn (hours), which [...] would be approximately eighteen Earth hours." (Outlaw of Gor, book 2, p. 150)
That is a relation of 1 ahn = 1.2 h
"It was almost eight Gorean Ahn, or about ten Earth hours" (Priest-Kings of Gor, book 1, p. 207)
That is a relation of 1 ahn = 1.25 h
According to the first relation of 1 ahn = 1.2h, 8 ahn would be 9.6 hours, which are also "about ten Earth" hours, whereas 15 ahn would be about 19 earth hours with a ratio of 1.25, so a ratio of 1.2 seems more correct.
[13:55] Hermes (prinzensaft): From the passage in book 10 we may nevertheless retain - despite the mistaken indication about the seconds:
"The Gorean day consists of twenty Ahn; the Gorean Ahn, or hour, of forty Ehn, or minutes; the Ehn consists of eighty Ihn, or seconds." (Tribesmen of Gor, Book 10, p. 352)
[13:56] Hermes (prinzensaft): This calculation of 1 Gorean day = 20 ahn, 1 ahn = 40 ehn, 1 ehn = 80 ihn is also attested elsewhere, for example in book 2:
"The Gorean day is divided into twenty Ahn, which are numbered consecutively. The tenth Ahn is noon, the twentieth, midnight. Each Ahn consists of forty Ehn, or minutes, and each Ehn of eighty Ihn, or seconds." (Outlaw of Gor Book 2 Page 26)
Let us suppose, then, that 1 ahn = 1.2 hours
One Gorean day of 20 ahn then has 24 hours, the same length as the Earth day.
[13:56] Hermes (prinzensaft): On this basis, we arrive at the following relations:
1 ihn 1.35 s "The Gorean Ihn, or second, is only a little longer than the Earth second."
1 ehn = 80 ihn 1.8 min = 108 s
1 ahn = 40 ehn 1.2 h = 72 min = 1h 12 min <<< basic correlation
1 gd = 20 ahn 24 h
In the other direction:
1 s 0.74 ihn
1 min = 60 s 0.55 ehn (44.44 ihn)
1 h = 60 min 0.83 ahn (33.33 ehn)
1 d =24 h 20 ahn
[13:56] Hermes (prinzensaft): This is the result preferred by Fogaban: "Due to the preponderance of evidence, we can only take that the reference from Book 10 is merely an inconsistency."
The Gorean Measurement Converter follows this theory and gives us 1 h 12 min for 1 ahn and 33 ehn for 1 hour.
[13:57] Hermes (prinzensaft): But the decisive reason is not mentioned: The Gorean days must have the same length as the Earth day, because the Gorean calendar counts 365 days in a year!
[13:57] Dallin (dallinpink) is offline.
[13:57] Hermes (prinzensaft): If the Gorean day were only 16 hours, a year - counted from En'kara to En'kara -, which is a whole orbit around the sun, would take 487 Gorean days. But the calendar counts only 365.
[13:57] Hermes (prinzensaft): After 365 of these short days, Gor would have only spent 2 thirds of its orbit around the sun (8 months instead of 12), and the next New Year would have to happen at the beginning of winter.
[13:57] Hermes (prinzensaft): So it is clear, that a Gorean day has the same length as an Earth day.
[13:58] Hermes (prinzensaft): So Gor rotates with the same speed as Earth. But how can we then explain the apparent speed of the moons?
[13:58] Melampus (godhet): Aahhh, very good
[13:59] Hermes (prinzensaft): If Gor rotates with the same speed as Earth, the Gorean Moons must have the same speed in the sky as the Earth moon over _Earth
[13:59] Jyclops Jansma is online.
[13:59] Hermes (prinzensaft): In any case, the big moons cannot move faster across the night sky as Luna on Earth, if the rotations of the planets are the same.
[13:59] Hermes (prinzensaft): It could be the case that the Prison Moon is so close to Gor that it rotates around Gor several times a day. like a satellite so that we indeed see it move across the sky.
[13:59] Hermes (prinzensaft): However, this would probably be mentioned as such, and on the other hand, ALL Gorean moons are described as swift or hurtling. The only explanation I see is that this refers to their own orbit speed and from the differences we see between one night and the next. Their positions, and also their phases, change faster from one night to the next as is the case for the Earth moon.
[14:00] Hermes (prinzensaft): That is, dear adepts of the night sky, the only explanation I am able to offer.
[14:00] Hermes (prinzensaft): Thank you for your attention!
[14:00] Melampus (godhet) claps for the Khan.
[14:01] ꜱʜɪʀ ᴊᴀʜᴀɴ (shirjahan) applauses
[14:01] Tariq ibn Joshao al Samini (kitten.serpente): applauds the Khan
[14:01] Vαяη (varndavar.magic): ☆Applause☆
[14:01] Melampus (godhet): Thank you very much. I never heard such a comprehensiove overview on the moons of Gor before.
[14:01] Bea Lael (lifepath) claps
[14:01] Trygg Tyran (tryggtyran): Well done hermes"
[14:02] Hermes (prinzensaft): I know it was a bit tight!
[14:02] Tariq ibn Joshao al Samini (kitten.serpente): Indeed. Remarkable.
[14:02] ꝀȺɌ (karisima.stein) claps
[14:02] Trygg Tyran (tryggtyran) smiles to see Tariq take the lectern
[14:02] Hermes (prinzensaft): I am open to discussion with any interested person in private or in group later on!
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