Scribe Summit - Lecture 05: Hermes Standardisation pt1

[13:00] Hermes (prinzensaft): walks to the lectern and gets ready for his talk

[13:00] se dirige vers le pupitre et se prépare pour son discours

[13:00] Hermes (prinzensaft): coughs. are you ready?

[13:00] toux. es-tu prêt?

[13:01] Hermes (prinzensaft): I know it's useless but let me ask you to please NOT click on the board

[13:01] Je sais que c'est inutile mais permettez-moi de vous demander de ne pas cliquer sur le tableau

[13:01]  Aυţυмη нαuι (autumnraineskye) is online.

[13:01] Yoshida Ahiratsu (serenity.spiritor) is online.

[13:01] Davor O'Donnell (davoroflaura): (( very sorry ))

[13:01] ((vraiment désolé))

[13:02] Hermes (prinzensaft): Welcome to this talk about the Standardization of the Gorean Calendar.

[13:02] Bienvenue à ce discours sur la standardisation du calendrier gorean.

[13:02] Hermes (prinzensaft): If you can't imagine what it's about, don't worry! the word is awful, but the practical implications are quite concrete

[13:02] Si vous ne pouvez pas imaginer de quoi il s'agit, ne vous inquiétez pas! Le mot est horrible, mais les implications pratiques sont assez concrètes

[13:02] Hermes (prinzensaft): As you may know, I had proposed the standardization of the Gorean Calendar first at the last En'kara fair at the Sardar mountains, exposing the problem and proposing to proceed in four steps, each time at one of the four big fairs of the Gorean year: at En'kara, En'Var, Se'Kara and Se'Var.

[13:02] Comme vous le savez peut-être, j'avais d'abord proposé la standardisation du calendrier goéen à la dernière foire d'E'kara aux montagnes de Sardar, exposant le problème et proposant de procéder en quatre étapes, à chaque fois à l'une des quatre grandes foires de l'année gorean: à En'kara, en'var, Se'kara et Se'var.

[13:03] Hermes (prinzensaft): The next meeting took place at the En'Var solstice in the City Hall of Isfahan. At that meeting I again exposed the problem and proposed a solution that was greeted unanimously by all present.

[13:03] La prochaine réunion a eu lieu au solstice en'var dans la mairie d'Isfahan. Lors de cette réunion, j'ai de nouveau exposé le problème et proposé une solution qui a été accueilli à l'unanimité par tous les présents.

[13:03] Hermes (prinzensaft): We are assembled here today for the follow-up meeting and are delighted to have among us Fogaban who has created and maintains the Gorean Cave website.

[13:03] Nous sommes assemblés ici aujourd'hui pour la réunion de suivi et sommes ravis d'avoir parmi nous Fogaban qui a créé et maintient le site Web de Gorean Cave.

[13:03] Hermes (prinzensaft): For those who have not been present at the last two meeting, I will briefly repeat the problem of the beginning of the Gorean Year in terms of Earth dates and the proposed solution. The question of the year we are in right now, so the one about the conversion between Contasta Ar count and Gregorian calendar count of years will be treated tomorrow at 11 am slt.

[13:03] Pour ceux qui n'ont pas été présents lors de la dernière réunion, je répéterai brièvement le problème du début de l'année goréenne en termes de dates de terre et de solution proposée. La question de l'année dans laquelle nous nous trouvons en ce moment, donc celle de la conversion entre Contasta AR Count et Grégorian Calendar Count of Years sera traitée demain à 11 h SLT.

[13:04] Hermes (prinzensaft): The whole problem occurred because we prepared a calendar for our Dance company, the Sereem Kajiri Dancers of Isfahan that you see over there on the wall for the current Gorean year. We were confronted with a problem: when exactly does the Gorean Year start? We asked the organizers of the En'Kara fair when there will be a New Year celebration, but they did not plan one and did not know either at which exact date the new Gorean year would start.

[13:04] Freya Hedwig (sparklingjewelri) is online.

[13:04] Hermes (prinzensaft): We know for certain that the Gorean year starts at the En'Kara Equinox. 

"In Ar, as in most cities in the northern hemisphere, the new year begins with the vernal equinox." (Magicians of Gor     Book 25     Page 106)

[13:05] Lib (liberace57) is online.

[13:05] Hermes (prinzensaft): But when exactly is that equinox? When day and night have the same length, on the Northern hemisphere of Gor. So far, so simple.

But what is the Earth date of this event?

[13:05] Kiki Silverclaw-Jacobson (elphaba.jinxing): @

[13:05] Hermes (prinzensaft): The Free Gorean Calendar starts the Gorean year on March 21 as you see here on the board, and the Gorean Snaffle Calendar does the same.

[13:05] Hermes (prinzensaft): please ask questions at the end

[13:06] Kiki Silverclaw-Jacobson (elphaba.jinxing): *nods*

[13:06] zCS # [Mod] MonaElaisa Resident switched from [RP] to [OOC].

[13:06] Hermes (prinzensaft): Fogaban starts the year on the 20th of March arguing that the spring equinox will always start on that day on Earth until 2044.

[13:06] Kiki Silverclaw-Jacobson (elphaba.jinxing) smiles

[13:06] Hermes (prinzensaft): https://www.thegoreancave.com/tmm/calendar_20th.pp

[13:06] Hermes (prinzensaft): The Gorean Measurement Converter, on the other hand, that is used by most of us, has the Gorean year start on the 19th of March.

[13:06] Madeleine Paxson (mallairian) is offline.

[13:07] Hermes (prinzensaft): Let me say something about the Earth background of these dates:

[13:07] Hermes (prinzensaft): These are indeed the three days on which the equinox CAN IN PRINCIPLE happen on EARTH, although the 20th of March is the central date.

[13:07] Hermes (prinzensaft): It is a fact that the Equinox on Earth currently occurs on the 20th of March, and that over many years until 2043.

[13:07] Hermes (prinzensaft): An Earth equinox on March 19th happened last time in 1796 CE and will happen next time in 2044. The 21st of March is a bit more frequent, it happened most recently in 2007 and will happen next in 2102.

[13:08] Hermes (prinzensaft): So the 20th of March is the standard day for the beginning of spring on Earth's Northern hemisphere. 

But why should the timing of the equinox be exactly the same on Gor as it is on Earth?

[13:08] Hermes (prinzensaft): Let me mention some astronomical and calendarial facts that help understand the situation:

[13:08] Hermes (prinzensaft): 1. The basic fact: Gor is counter-Earth

The Priest-Kings brought the planet Gor into the solar system two million years ago from another star system:

"[Tarl Cabot:] My father [...] said, from what he could learn from the Initiates, who claimed to serve as the intermediairies of Priest-Kings to men, that the planet Gor had originally been a satellite of a distant sun, in one of the fantastically remote Blue Galaxies. It was moved by the science of the Priest-Kings several times in its history, seeking again and again a new star." (Book 1, ch.2)

[13:09] Hermes (prinzensaft): They placed it so that Gor and Earth would always be on opposite sides of the sun. 

Gor is therefore also called Counter-Earth. The fact that Gor is always hidden behind the sun from an Earth perspective is also called the sun-shield in the books:

[13:09] Velniar Esharham is offline.

[13:09] Hermes (prinzensaft): "That", he said with animation, "is the Theory of the Sun Shield." He added, "That is why I like to think of the planet as the Counter-Earth, not only because of its resemblance to our native world, but because, as a matter of fact, it is placed as a counterpoise to the Earth. It has the same plane of orbit and maintains its orbit in such a way as always to keep The Central Fire between it and its planetary sister, our Earth, even though this necessitates occasional adjustments in its speed of revolution. [...] Any power that is capable of moving a planet - and I believe the Priest-Kings possess this power - is capable of effecting adjustments in the motion of the planet, such adjustments as might allow it to use the sun indefinitely as a concealing shield." (Book 1, ch.2)

[13:10] Hermes (prinzensaft): Now, if we take it as a fact that Gor and Earth are always on opposite sides of the sun (or Lar-Torvis), such that neither planet can ever see the other, this has some pretty straightforward AND STRICT implications.

[13:10] Hermes (prinzensaft): 1. The orbit

[13:10] Hermes (prinzensaft): * The speed of a planet or other object only depends on its distance to the central Fire, NOT on its mass. The closer an object gets to the sun, the faster it must turn around it. 

According to Kepler's second law, the speed is indirectly proportional to the square root of the radius. v = square root of (g x Mass of the sun / r)

[13:11] Hermes (prinzensaft): * Another hard astronomical fact: Planets do not orbit on circles but on ellipses that may be more or less close to circles. Earth and Gor are sometimes closer, sometimes further from the sun.

[13:12] Hermes (prinzensaft): What may surprise at first is that the Earth is closest to the sun in Northern Winter and further away in summer, but this is a happy fact indeed (at least for the Northern hemisphere), as we will see.

[13:12] Hermes (prinzensaft): On this picture, which has much information, just look at the blue planet first which is Earth.

[13:12] Hermes (prinzensaft): It is 147 million km from the sun on Jan 3 (the so-called Perihelion, when it's closest to the sun) and 

152 million km from the sun on the 4th of July (the so-called Aphelion when it's furthest from the sun).

[13:13] Hermes (prinzensaft): So on average, Gor and Earth are approximately 150 Million km from the sun, a distance that also defines the Astronomical Unit AU, and move with a speed of almost 30 km/s. Mars for example has an orbit (much more elliptical than that of Gor or Earth) at 1.5 AU from the sun and moves with an average speed of only 24 km/s.

[13:13] Hermes (prinzensaft): When a planet is closest to the sun, this is called Perihelion, when it's furthest away, Aphelion.

[13:13] Hermes (prinzensaft): These dates are NOT pertinent for the seasons. In fact, Earth is closest to the sun in winter, on 3rd of January, at 147.3 million kilometers distance. At Aphelion, the furthest point, Earth is 152.1 million km from the sun. Earth thus oscillates 3% of its distance around its mean distance of c. 150 Mio km from the sun (this is much closer to a circle than Mars that has 19% oscillation).

[13:14] Hermes (prinzensaft): This has an impact on the position of Gor.

[13:14] Hermes (prinzensaft): For when a planet is closer to the sun, it must move faster.

[13:14] Hermes (prinzensaft): Earth moves at 30.3 km/s at Perihelion and 29.3 at Aphelion. The difference in velocity between the two points is only 1 km per second, but in a month this amounts to 2.64 million km.

[13:15] Hermes (prinzensaft): In fact, the Earth moving slower from Spring to Autumn equinox when it is farther from the sun, explains why this "half" astronomical year has 184 days, while the winter "half" takes only 181.

[13:15] Hermes (prinzensaft): Those who love summer may therefore prefer the Nothern hemispheres of Gor or Earth for there summer lasts some days longer.

[13:16] Hermes (prinzensaft): Those who prefer the cold, should move to the Southern hemisphere - but much further down than Isfahan, for here it's quite tropical!

[13:16] Hermes (prinzensaft): Now imagine Gor being on the SAME ORBIT as Earth, just on the opposite side of the sun. It would mean that in Winter time, Earth would be closer to the sun than Gor is to the Central Fire. Earth would move faster, and Gor slower than average. Earth would move over 3 million km further than Gor within a month. This would mean that Gor would step out from behind the sun and become visible.

[13:16] Hermes (prinzensaft): This is the reason why Gor and Earth cannot move on the same orbit! This is the reason why both planets must always be at the SAME DISTANCE from Lar Torvis.

[13:17] Hermes (prinzensaft): In fact, it is very difficult to maintain Gor on exactly the opposite side of the sun. The other planets, in particular the big ones like Jupiter, but also passing comets divert a planet from its relatively stable path. There is no absolute symmetric solution to the influences of these planets and passing comets for both Earth and Gor. So there must be constant interventions by the Priest-Kings to maintain Gor on its orbit opposite the Earth.

[13:17] Hermes (prinzensaft): However, the Priest-Kings being highly intelligent and efficient, they will have chosen a set-up for Gor that minimizes these interventions. So it is to be assumed that the basic orbit of Gor MIRRORS that of Earth, such that it is always at the same distance from the sun. For in that case, the planets will not move with different speed and thus step out of their zone of invisibility.

[13:18] Hermes (prinzensaft): Gor moves NOT on Earth's orbit, but on one that mirrors the Earth orbit, such that Gor is always at the same distance to the sun as the Earth. This does not contradict the books, but is consistent with them. The above quoted passage states that Gor "has the same plane of orbit", it does not state that Gor has the same orbit!

[13:18] Hermes (prinzensaft): A word about this "plane": All planets orbit in the same plane, but since Gor was brought into the solar system, this is not obvious. It was such arranged by the Priest-Kings, praised be they!

[13:19] Hermes (prinzensaft): That's it about the orbit. Are there questions so far?

[13:20] Hermes (prinzensaft): If not I continue with point 2. Length of the Gorean Year

[13:20] Hermes (prinzensaft): Because Gor and Earth are always on opposite sides of the sun and a year is the time it takes to turn around the sun, the Gorean year must have the exact same length as the Earth year.

[13:20] Hermes (prinzensaft): In addition, the Gorean year has the same number of days and months as the Earth year. Why is that? It is quite simple to see:

[13:20] Hermes (prinzensaft): Each Gorean month has 5 weeks of 5 days and is followed by a Passage Hand, equally of 5 days. 

That makes 30 days, and according to the calendar of Ar there are 12 months, so we get 30 times 12 = 360 days.

In addition, the last Passage Hand is followed by the Waiting Hand, usually of 5 days which gives us 365 days a year, just like on Earth.

[13:21] Hermes (prinzensaft): From this it follows that the length of a day on Gor is identical to the length of a day on Earth: 24 hours = 20 ahn.

[13:21] Hermes (prinzensaft): To state the same fact differently: If a day on Gor were shorter than an Earth day, there would have to be more than 365 days in a Gorean year.

[13:22] Hermes (prinzensaft): Now, unfortunately, but quite naturally, a year does not have exactly 365 days or any  - a year is not an integer multiple of a day, for the rotation of a planet around itself is not directly related to its rotation around the sun.

Earth and Gor take 365 days and c. 6 hours to turn once around the Central Fire.

[13:23] Hermes (prinzensaft): To account for this, sometimes, in average every 4 yours, a sixth day is added to the Waiting Hand, just like in the leap years on Earth, to compensate the almost 6 hours that the orbit is longer than 365 days.

[13:23] Hermes (prinzensaft): "Every few years, as necessitated, an additional day is inserted into the calendar, at the end of the waiting hand." (Swordsmen of Gor     Book 29     Page 465)

[13:23] Hermes (prinzensaft): A problem for us (in SL Gor) is that these years do not seem to happen on a regular basis ("as necessitated") and do thus not coincide with the Earth leap years that happen every fourth year, which then has 366 days.

[13:24] Hermes (prinzensaft): Under these conditions the beginning of the Gorean Year shifts a lot around the 20th of March, maybe even further than the 19th or 21st.

[13:24] Hermes (prinzensaft): Hence the second proposal to add the additional day in the Waiting Hand every 4 years, exactly when there is a leap year on Earth - so next time in 2028 /10'179 C.A.

[13:25] Kaysie Michigan is offline.

[13:25] Hermes (prinzensaft): Any questions to this part? I hope I haven't lost you all!

[13:25] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino) is online.

[13:25] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino) entered chat range (9.49 m).

[13:25] Hermes (prinzensaft): 3. The Gorean equinox

[13:26] Hermes (prinzensaft): If on a location north or south of the equator the position of the Sun changes over the course of a year, creating the seasons, this happens because the planet's rotational axis is not perpendicular to its orbit around the Sun.

[13:26] Hermes (prinzensaft): We call this a planet's obliquity or tilt. The Earth's obliquity is currently 23.44 degrees. 

The obliquity or axial tilt is calculated as the angle between the rotational axis and the orbital axis. The orbital axis is perpendicular (at a right angle) to the planet's orbital plane. 

That orbital plane is rather similar to all planets of the solar system, all the planets in the solar system move in the same direction in approximately the same plane.

[13:26] Kaysie Michigan is online.

[13:27] Hermes (prinzensaft): The Earth's tilt against this plane is very stable and does not change significantly. It fluctuates between 22 and 24 degrees over periods of about 41,000 years.

[13:27] Hermes (prinzensaft): This is not the case for other planets. Mars‘ inclination seems to have been chaotic, fluctuating between 0 and 60 degrees.

[13:27] Hermes (prinzensaft): However, it is quite possible that in this respect we can also rely on the Priest Kings, the masters of gravitation, to have set up Gors’ axis of rotation corresponding to that of the Earth and thus stably.

[13:27] Hermes (prinzensaft): As we know, seasons do occur on Gor just like on Earth at a certain distance from the equator, and NOT to a CONSIDERABLY lesser or larger degree. In fact, Book 1 mentions this tilt and it is stated to be a bit less than that of the Earth:

[13:28] Hermes (prinzensaft): "The angle of its [Gor's] axis was somewhat sharper than the Earth's, but not enough to prevent its having a glorious periodicity of seasons." (Book 1, ch. 3 - The Tarn)

[13:28] Hermes (prinzensaft): We may thus assume that Gor's tilt is as stable as Earth's and should thus range somewhat between 20 and 23 degrees. It was probably installed by the Priest-Kings as well, for it is far too improbable that planets have approximately the same tilt and the same tilt stability.

[13:28] Hermes (prinzensaft): What interests us here, however, is not the amount of the tilt, but its ORIENTATION.

[13:29] Hermes (prinzensaft): For the summer solstice occurs when the planet's northern hemisphere is TILTED TOWARDS THE SUN.

[13:29] Hermes (prinzensaft): Now the orientation of the tilt is also, like the angle of the tilt, quite stable over time and does not significantly change over one year. It will thus equally apply to the Se'Var solstice and the two equinoxes (in fact, It always points to the Polar star on Earth, no matter the time of the year).

[13:29] Hermes (prinzensaft): If a planet on the other side of the sun is to have a summer solstice at the same time, its rotational axis must equally be tilted towards the sun, which means that it is tilted in the opposite direction. Looking at the picture, just pick out the June stolstice which occurs for Earth (blue) on the left side, while Gor (in orange) finds itself on the opposite side of Lar-Torvis at the same distance. What we are talking about now is the orientation of the axis towards the sun, indicating there by a slim line crossing the planet.

[13:31] Hermes (prinzensaft): So how do we know that the March equinox of Earth happens at exactly the same time as the En'Kara equinox on Gor? How do we know that the orientation of Gor's tilt is exactly opposite to that of the Earth?

[13:31] Hermes (prinzensaft): We always implicitly assume that spring starts on the Gorean Northern hemisphere when it starts on Earth's Northern hemisphere. But on which grounds?

[13:31] Hermes (prinzensaft): In order to check this, we have to compare the seasons when someone is taken from Earth and brought to Gor.

[13:32] Hermes (prinzensaft): i. Tarl Cabot's first trip to Gor

Indeed, when Tarl Cabot was abducted the first time, it was February on Earth and a couple of weeks later - when he had absolved his first training in Ko-ro-ba and was sent to Ar to steal its Home Stone, it was the time of the Planting Feast, hence early in springtime. We may thus conclude that the seasons are at least more or less in line on both planets' Northern hemispheres.

[13:32] Hermes (prinzensaft): But what do we know about the time it takes to get from Earth to Gor? Even light needs over 16 minutes to travel that distance. The easiest way for a manned spaceship would be to get off one planet and hang around in space for 6 months. Currently, the fastest crewed terrestrial spacecraft would take about as long, more than half a year, to travel that distance. Even if we assume that the Priest-Kings have much faster devices for space travel, the journey should still take days, even weeks.

[13:33] Hermes (prinzensaft): ii. Tarl Cabot's second trip to Gor

[13:33] Hermes (prinzensaft): Book 2 starts with a surprising remark by Tarl Cabot in ch. 2 - Return to Gor: "Once again, I, Tarl Cabot, strode the green fields of Gor. I awakened naked in the wind-swept grass [...]"

[13:33] Hermes (prinzensaft): He left Earth in February, amidst the snowy White Mountains. And he lands near Ko-ro-ba in green fields.

[13:34] Hermes (prinzensaft): The greening of fields usually appears not before mid March. It is not clear when in February Tarl Cabot left for the second time, but it is not excluded that it was late in that month. So the space travel would have taken 2-3 weeks at least, if not 4 or 5. This is confirmed by the following lines:

[13:34] Muse Steele (muse.triellis) is offline.

[13:34] Hermes (prinzensaft): "I rose slowly to my feet, my fibers alive in the wind, my hair torn by its blasts, my muscles aching and rejoicing in their first movements in perhaps weeks, for I had again entered that silver disk in the White Mountains which was the ship of the Priest-Kings, used for the Voyages of Acquisition, and, in entering, had fallen unconscious. In that state, as once long before, I had come to this world." (Book 2, ch.2)

[13:34] Hermes (prinzensaft): The following reports confirm the impression that we are quite advanced in the year, with plants already growing abundantly:

[13:35] Hermes (prinzensaft): "In the distance I could see some patches of yellow, the Ka-la-na groves that dot the fields of Gor. Far to my left I saw a splendid field of Sa-Tarna, bending beautifully in the wind, that tall yellow grain that forms a staple in the Gorean diet." (book 2, ch.2)

[13:35] Drew Barnard entered chat range (17.96 m).

[13:35] Hermes (prinzensaft): Only the relatively cold temperatures with icy rain indicate an early moment in springtime:

"[...] with the lightning, the storm descended, fierce cold torrents of icy rain whipped by the wind. In a moment, I was drenched in the icy water."

[13:35] Hermes (prinzensaft): And in fact, winter cereals like wheat or, on Gor, Sa-Tarna, green first, so we suppose that Tarl approaches the destroyed city of Ko-ro-ba mid to end of March 10'117 C.A. or 1966 (about this date see tomorrow).

[13:36] Hermes (prinzensaft): iii. The Priest-Kings

[13:36] Hermes (prinzensaft): I would further hold that the Gorean equinox happens at exactly the same day as on Earth without having found conclusive evidence of this in the books for now (if anybody finds one, I am grateful to share!).

[13:37] Hermes (prinzensaft): The claim is founded on the observation that Gor is generally set up in accordance with Earth. Not only does it orbit always on the other side of Lar Torvis (same length of year), but it has the same rotation period (length of day), the same tilt (intensity of seasons), and that tilt must spin in the same periodicity as Earth's tilt (otherwise the seasons wouldn't be in line any more).

[13:37] Hermes (prinzensaft): This is a series of correspondances that beyond natural coincidence that display the will of the Priest-Kings to set up Gor as the Counter-Earth.

[13:37] ᴀᴍᴀʀɪꜱꜱᴀ ᴅᴇᴠᴇʀᴇᴜx (lycaonia.siren) is offline.

[13:38] Hermes (prinzensaft): It seems very plausible to assume that they also set the tilt and its orientation such that the seasons on the Northern hemispheres correspond, or in other words: that the days of equinox are the same.

[13:38] Hermes (prinzensaft): However, something the Priest-Kings left for us to do!

[13:38] Hermes (prinzensaft): However, even if the Priest-Kings perfectly aligned the tilts of Gor and Earth such that both planets have their spring equinoxes at the same moment, it doesn't mean that the Gorean year always starts on March 20, because unfortunately the occurrence of the additional 366th leap day is, according to book 29, irregular and therefore does not coincide with the regular leap days on Earth.

[13:39] Hermes (prinzensaft): These are the problems we encountered when setting up our calendar. We have finally adopted a pragmatic approach and set March 19th as the date of the new year 10'176 C.A.

[13:39] Hermes (prinzensaft): The reason for this is simply that this corresponds to the ‘Gorean Measurement Converter’, which has been and is widely used by the high castes of SL Gor, in particular by scribes and healers, to determine the Gorean dates in all relevant documents, from contracts to health examinations to slave papers.

[13:39] Hermes (prinzensaft): For the Goreans in the books, the conversion with Earth dates is not important, but it is for the Goreans in Second Life. Therefore I would think it is the duty of the scribes of SL Gor to decide on these matters in concertation with the other High Castes.

[13:40] Hermes (prinzensaft): If the Earth date of the Gorean New Year were to be universally defined (for example as the 20th of March) and the occurrence of the additional sixth day of the Waiting Hand were to be aligned with the Earth leap day that occurs every four years, a uniform, simple and stable conversion system would be in place.

[13:40] Hermes (prinzensaft): To conclude, the problems of incoherent and unstable conversion dates could be solved under two conditions:

[13:40] Hermes (prinzensaft): 1. fix the Earth date of the Gorean Equinox once and for all. The 20th of March would be the best date (but it would mean to adapt the Gorean converter for the future)

[13:41] Hermes (prinzensaft): 2. align the Gorean jump years (that add an additional 6th day in the Waiting Hand) with the jump years of Earth (that add the 29th of February). The next 366 day-year would then be in 2028.

[13:41] Hermes (prinzensaft): If you are interested in this debate, please feel free to contact me, the Khan of Isfahan (prinzensaft resident)

By the way I want to thank the Prince of Red Rock, my companion, dearly for having created this calendar with me!

Thank you for your attention!

[13:42] Hermes (prinzensaft): Well he ain't prince of Red Rock anymore, but still is prince of the Tashid...

[13:42] Hermes (prinzensaft): there is now some time left for asking questions and discussion

[13:43] Fogaban: @

[13:43] Jon Julius Ƭɛɼɼợɼ (fresh.peppermint) is offline.

[13:45] Hermes (prinzensaft): Yes, Fogaban?

[13:45] Iskander Jorgensson (dramirak) is offline.

[13:45] Fogaban: Did you say you are going to discuss the current year Contasta Ar this weekend?

[13:45] Hermes (prinzensaft): yes tomorrow

[13:45] Hermes (prinzensaft): it's less astronomical and demands just some book reading

[13:45] Fogaban: *nods*

[13:46] Hermes (prinzensaft): quite straightforward

[13:46] Fogaban: I think so

[13:46] Hermes (prinzensaft): I would think you agree with the results of these considerations and would also, like all the others, be in favor of fixing the start of the Gorean year on the 20th of March?

[13:47] Hermes (prinzensaft): The additional question is that of the leap year.

[13:47] Fogaban: I completely agree that, until what was it 2044, the new year is on the 20th

[13:47] Hermes (prinzensaft): on Earth.

[13:48] Kiki Silverclaw-Jacobson (elphaba.jinxing): *nods*

[13:48] zCS # [Mod] AaronDaegal Resident [RP] logged into the region.

[13:48] Hermes (prinzensaft): The basic question is if we allow us to suppose that it is on the same date on Gor

[13:49] Hermes (prinzensaft): For example you could say that well, he travels from Earth to Gor from winter do Spring, so the seasons are different

[13:49] Fogaban: Then we're all off by 6 months

[13:49] Hermes (prinzensaft): when there is winter in New Hampshire, there is spring around Ko-ro-ba

[13:49] Fogaban: not just one day

[13:49] Hermes (prinzensaft): not necessarily

[13:50] Hermes (prinzensaft): but could be some months apart

[13:51] Hermes (prinzensaft): I would still hold that spring equinox in Northern Gor occurs on the 20th of March

[13:51] Fogaban: Or ........ we could all just agree on what Google tells us as to when the vernal equinox ..... March 20th, until 2044

[13:51] Violet Thiessam (ayiranayo) is online.

[13:51] Hermes (prinzensaft): Googles tells us that for Earth

[13:51] Hermes (prinzensaft): Gor is another planet. It has its tilt oriented differently

[13:53] Hermes (prinzensaft): You need reasons to claim that the equinox on Gor happens at the same time it happens on Earth. You cannot just presuppose it.

[13:53] Fogaban: The books do not say anywhere that THIS specific date on Earth is THIS specific date on Gor .... believe me, I wish it was that plain. But it's not, so assumptions must me made. Pick a date and stick with it based on the best guess we can make

[13:54] Hermes (prinzensaft): exactly. That's what we are doing here. But it is not sufficent to repeat the earth equinox dates

[13:55] Hermes (prinzensaft): Does anyone here have contact with the builders of the Gorean measurement converter?

[13:55] Fogaban: I will be 84 in 2044 .... so, if I'm still around, I'll worry about changing the code on my website then *smiles*

[13:55] Drew Barnard chuckles

[13:56] Hermes (prinzensaft): Well, waiting for that glorious moment we healers and scribes and diplomats will not wait to adapt our converters

[13:57] Hermes (prinzensaft): which tell us the wrong date according to Fogaban who starts the year on the 20th while the converter does it on the 19th

[13:57] Odette Atheria is online.

[13:58] Violet Thiessam (ayiranayo) is offline.

[13:58] Trygg Tyran (tryggtyran): Where is the converter located. Is it in world?

[13:58] Kiki Silverclaw-Jacobson (elphaba.jinxing): We perhaps need to get one created  for us  to use and share out to  other castes?

[13:58] Hermes (prinzensaft): most of us use the Gorean measurement converter available on MP

[13:59] Fogaban is online.

[13:59] Hermes (prinzensaft): it's usually quite reliable, but has this one flaw

[14:00] Hermes (prinzensaft): IIt's time to end for me. I conclude that I will myself have to get into contact with the creators of this converter in order to get a workable instrument.

[14:00] Hermes (prinzensaft): We'll see about that in the next meeting at Se'Var. Is there already a place decided about a Se'Var scribe meeting?

[14:01] ꝀȺɌ (karisima.stein): I’m all for a simple, steady conversion. Gor can be a whirlwind, and having something we all agree on—and can  implement would be a welcome shift.

[14:01] Jake Lane (slade.jestyr) entered chat range (9.66 m).

[14:01] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): I'd love to know

[14:01] Abraham Jacobson (abrahamjacobs2): Not yet

[14:01] Abraham Jacobson (abrahamjacobs2): We need to discuss it

t

[14:02] Hermes (prinzensaft): Looks at the folks from Scimitars

[14:02] Hermes (prinzensaft): you always do things around Se'Var.... but... that's not up to me to decide

[14:03] Muse Steele (muse.triellis) is online.

[14:03] Hermes (prinzensaft): Thank you again for your attention and be assured, Kar, that we will have it!

Scribe Summit - Lecture 4 - Ask a Magistrate Anything (Kati Evans)

 

[11:56] Abraham Jacobson (abrahamjacobs2): Kati the floor is yours

[11:57] Kati Evans: Well this is good, the room is not empty.  smiles

[11:57] Abraham Jacobson (abrahamjacobs2): grins

[11:57] Kati Evans: Greetings, I am Lady Kati Evans of Teletus.  I am the Ubara's Council and a Magistrate of our City.  I have been a magistrate in various cities in this world for over 15 years and I want to welcome you.

[11:57] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow): we could ask abraham to strip

[11:57] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow): sooon afte rmight be empty

[11:57] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow): :P

[11:58] Abraham Jacobson (abrahamjacobs2): da da da da

[11:58] Kati Evans: This is not going to be like the previous topics as this is not a lecture.  This is ASK A MAGISTRATE ANYTHING, so more of a question and answer session.  So you have a part to play in this and will determine what is discussed.

[11:58] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow) giggles and winks

[11:58] Abraham Jacobson (abrahamjacobs2): t da da da

[11:58] Isabela (jennifer.elara) entered chat range (13.47 m).

[11:58] Kati Evans: I will answer from my knowledge and study of where I have been in our world, which for the most part is central along the Vosk River, the islands around Cos, citiess in the Volan Mountains, and for while in Turia.  I have only visited the North a few times and was not there long enough to learn the culture of the area.  So lets begin...

[11:59] Kati Evans: What questions would you like to ask a magistrate?  (If you would help me by using the @@@ for raising your hand and state your question.  Example:  "@@@ I would like to know about....")

[11:59] Armand deFleur (armand.wayfarer) raises his hand to ask the learned scribe a question.

[11:59] Turjann entered chat range (10.44 m).

[11:59] VISTA ANIMATIONS *HUD3.9i* ELEGANT WOMAN v.1: MAIN AO OFF

[12:00] VISTA ANIMATIONS *HUD3.9i* ELEGANT WOMAN v.1: MAIN AO ON

[12:00] Kati Evans: Go head, it appears (Armand) you are first.

[12:00] Nephtides na Neidos (nephtides) is online.

[12:00] Armand deFleur (armand.wayfarer) stands and pulls on his tunic to remove any creases then says, "Good Lady Kati, my learned colleagues, I, Armand deFleur, Magistrate of the city of Lara, present to you the following quandry:  As we know, a musician cannot be enslaved, as those who bring art should be free.  What then say you if a Free Woman musician were to willingly submit to a Free Man, and yet still claim to be a Free Woman and musician, as well as claim to be a concubine to this man, dressing as a slave, dancing as a slave, and acting... like a slave?"

[12:00] Saku Takahashi 高橋 (mi.yuequi) entered chat range (9.91 m).

[12:00] Kiki Silverclaw-Jacobson (elphaba.jinxing) entered chat range (13.07 m).

[12:01] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow) would say,. there be week men

[12:01] Anon Haven: chuckles

[12:01] Armand deFleur (armand.wayfarer) returns to his seat to listen.... (( Done ))

[12:01] Carlosliraa entered chat range (13.78 m).

[12:02] Kati Evans: grins, you do like long questions with different parts.

[12:02] Armand deFleur (armand.wayfarer) smiles to her.

[12:02] zCS # [Mod] Kyoko Winx [Away] logged into the region.

[12:02] Hermes (prinzensaft): @@@ inspired by DeFleurs questions I would like to know what you think about the following case: one of my kajiri develops a talent for music and singing and storytelling and becomes a renowned poet. Does that mean I have to free him?

[12:02] Carlosliraa entered chat range (19.16 m).

[12:04] Kati Evans: The quick answer  - My reaction towards this woman would be that she decided to give up her right to be free if she has regularly behaved like a slave and ignored warnings.

[12:05] Armand deFleur (armand.wayfarer) nods his head as he listens to Lady Kati.

[12:07] Kati Evans: Would you have to free your kajiri because he learns these skills - did he not learn these skills to please you and entertain you.  Why release what you own... though if you wanted to, you surely could.

[12:07] Velniar Esharham entered chat range (19.96 m).

[12:07] Kati Evans: Do you agree?

[12:07] Hermes (prinzensaft): I tried to, he refuses.... chuckles

[12:07] Kati Evans: Then he did it for you, enjoy it.

[12:07] Dexter Winters (sytheking1) is online.

[12:08] Hermes (prinzensaft): I told him poets and musicians are usually free and was ready to free him, but he wants to remain in my services. So basically we're all happy with the situation. Just wanted to have your opinion, thank you!

[12:09] Anatisti Foulsbane raises his hand * regarding Hermes question

[12:09] Kati Evans: Does any one recall the wording in the book about musicians and such remaining free?

[12:10] Kati Evans: Yes Anatisti?

[12:10] Fogaban: *raises his hand at the quote request*

[12:11] Avery Bade (freyadragonborn) is online.

[12:12] Kati Evans: What is the quote, Fogaban?

[12:12] Anatisti Foulsbane: in the magicans of gor there was the slave milo, a well known actor, an artist. but his master didn't set him free for his acting skills. I see it that the status when he gets his skills is important. Rember the singer, actors and so on are normaly a caste that you are born into

[12:12] Fogaban: I have a quote here which addresses both questions ....

[12:12] Fogaban: The musicians were free. Musicians on Gor, that is, members of the caste of musicians, are seldom, if ever, enslaved. Their immunity from bondage, or practical immunity from bondage, is a matter of custom. There is a saying to the effect that he who makes music must, like the tarn and the Vosk gull, be free. This is a saying, however, which I suspect was invented by the caste of musicians, to protect itself from bondage. For example, there are many musicians on Gor, not members of the caste, who are enslaved. For example, it is quite common on Gor to train a slave girl in the use of a musical instrument, that she might be more pleasing to masters.

Kajira of Gor     Book 19     Pages 297 - 298

[12:12] Anatisti Foulsbane: mebers of the caste are free, not slaves who can sing

[12:13] Muzzy (muzzy.daxter) entered chat range (14.05 m).

[12:13] Hermes (prinzensaft): @@@ then I have a follow-up question

[12:13] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow): thats now a qute that says it law

[12:13] Kati Evans: Thank you, Fogaban.

[12:14] Muzzy (muzzy.daxter): Greetings, where am i

[12:14] Kati Evans: Now back to Anatisti's question.....

[12:14] Abraham Jacobson (abrahamjacobs2) entered chat range (9.89 m).

[12:15] Anon Haven: Somewhere in the Tahari

[12:15] Kati Evans: Did you have more to add Anatisti, as I think that quote answered for itself..

[12:15] Anatisti Foulsbane: no nothing

[12:15] Muzzy (muzzy.daxter): Is the weather is hot or these all pretty women are reason of the GOr high tempreture

[12:16] Kati Evans: Hermes, what is your question?

[12:16] Hermes (prinzensaft): You may only have one caste, right. So usually a scribe or healer who wants to become a Player, has to give up his former caste in order become a Player. Does that also hold for ubars or administrators during their rule? And what would it take for that slave to become member of the caste of musicians?

[12:18] Hermes (prinzensaft): No forget the last part. I'd have to free him first. Then it's up to the caste to take him in according to their criteria....

[12:19] Hermes (prinzensaft): To state my question otherwise: May one of the Players be ubar?

[12:19] Kati Evans: Yes, you have one caste. But are there not examples of a person being in one caste....

[12:19] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino) entered chat range (18.65 m).

[12:19] Myriam-alyah Spires (noirnyte.spires) is offline.

[12:20] Kati Evans: My caste is a scribe, but could I not assist or work as a physician at times.

[12:20] لąʍҽʂ βօʂաҽӀӀ (james.eton) is offline.

[12:20] Kati Evans: Could I not help a builder if needed.

[12:21] Kati Evans: Is not every man in a city a warrior when the city is attacked?

[12:22] Kati Evans: At times when need we become what is needed.

[12:22] Kati Evans: Does that change my caste, generally I would say no.

[12:23] Hermes (prinzensaft): Right! Very commendable! And I would add that a good ruler should know as much as possible of all higher castes! Even from the caste of warriors, he or she should help in the healery if having the knowledge. - In the first book it is said that players do not constitue a caste, and that all Goreans may be players. But that is different in the further books, with a caste of players introduced. So recently when I was about to get accepted in the caste of Players, they chose to accept me as honorary member so that won't have to give up my former caste - that of scribes. I felt that was a bit akward, but well.

[12:23] Muzzy (muzzy.daxter): I got question when Lady is free to answer

[12:23] Kati Evans: But could it... there is that possibility in our scrolls that John Norman gave to us.

[12:24] Anatisti Foulsbane raises his hand

[12:25] Kati Evans: Muzzy first, then Anatisti.

[12:25] Kaellaed Rhode is online.

[12:26] Ella De Wren Bade (elladewren) is online.

[12:26] Muzzy (muzzy.daxter): I like Hermes question. its a common thinking among people of changing caste . one may change if desire but again having desire not all that matters. However in GOr the word used " commonly" for the goreans who stick to their castes. Is it ubar so free to authorize any caste changing approvals ? is it not up to the council and the leader of the caste. to understand all this what do you think is it important to understand first how Goreans actually get into castes and what gorean seeks in GOR ?

[12:27] Dexter Winters (sytheking1) entered chat range (15.13 m).

[12:27] Kaysie Michigan is online.

[12:29] Kaysie Michigan is offline.

[12:29] Kaysie Michigan is online.

[12:29] K A E L A (yenniferrivia) is offline.

[12:29] Anatisti Foulsbane: we forget one fact of gor , most of the people on gor cannot read and write, even in the high castest there are around 15% illiterated. so the knowledge is given from father to son normaly. and to be really in a caste you have to get the knowledge. even the hidden knowlegde. and to find a mentor who gives this to a non caste meber is quite difficult. I don't know the exacte phrase but norman says something, that every caste speaks a diffrent language, even when they all speak gorean. that the difference between practicing in a caste and beeing in a caste. the sharing of this knowlegde is in my eyes the same as making a maps of an city

[12:29] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow): book wise, one might change but the codes, makes it an assasin comes after said changing person; it what they there for ;3 to protect the codes

[12:30] Kati Evans: There you get into how a city is ruled and while there are some principles about our world that we all share, each city is and can be govened differently.  Is it common that there are slaves in every city for a board example yes.  But how each is governed is not.

[12:30] K A E L A (yenniferrivia) is online.

[12:31] Kati Evans: One Ubar of a city may choose that he is the one to decide if someone can change castes, another may want the council to be part of it, a third may want the Heads of Caste to decide.

[12:32] Kati Evans: That is part of the beauty of this world we call home.

[12:32] Hermes (prinzensaft): nods and smiles

[12:33] ꝀȺɌ (karisima.stein): I have a question.

[12:34] Muzzy (muzzy.daxter): @Mews , there are enough example in books of breaking codes. Codes not written in stone, Like it was said Honor have different voice and shapes. i am not as knowledgeable  as many here about GOR . But as ii remember the books , Gorean chose to live their life how they want. One may frown up it one may not.

[12:34] ꝀȺɌ (karisima.stein): Magistrates are sworn to uphold both the law and the codes of their Caste, while also serving the Ubar or Administrator. If faced with a moment where these duties conflict — where the written codes/law guide one path and a ruler’s command another — which takes precedence?

[12:34]  Aυţυмη нαuι (autumnraineskye) is offline.

[12:35] Kati Evans: Part of the beauty of this world that I like is that people are taught by people.  I may have an apprentice and teach them what I know. He will then interpret that in his own way and add to it when he teaches his apprentice.  In that way our knowledge grows and changes.

[12:37] Skyrn (geegee2016) is offline.

[12:37] Kati Evans: Which code or laws takes precedence.... over my years I have changed my position on that very question....

[12:38] Kaellaed Rhode is offline.

[12:38] Kati Evans: When I was first a magistrate I learned what it meant from so very talented people... yet it was not my own.

[12:39] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino) is offline.

[12:39] Flo (floreo) is offline.

[12:39] Kati Evans: I like to know the reasons why ... now things work... what principle is behind something and I did not see those at first.

[12:39] Kati Evans: I just followed the list I was given.

[12:39] Kati Evans: Some of it was customs

[12:40] Kati Evans: Some code

[12:40] Kati Evans: Some laws

[12:40] Kati Evans: They were all in my mind at first laws

[12:40] Tiberius Raynier (tiberiuspaladin.raynier) is offline.

[12:40] Kati Evans: I did not know the difference between them

[12:41] Evni (evnissyeen) entered chat range (19.06 m).

[12:41] Llewella (llewellas) entered chat range (19.30 m).

[12:41] Kati Evans: Customs are thing we need to learn and vary from one area of the world to the next.

[12:42] Kati Evans: I could not tell you what those are in the north, I have never lived there.

[12:42] Je ne pouvais pas vous dire ce que ce sont dans le nord, je n'y ai jamais vécu.

[12:42] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino) is online.

[12:42] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino) entered chat range (13.63 m).

[12:43] Anon Haven: We are free of such codes or laws, we only value honor

[12:43] Muzzy (muzzy.daxter): Were there any spoken codes of caste of the ones who wears blue ? i never found answer, even once i asked to Lady Jannet of Olni. excuse my rudeness , should have asked firs to ask a question.

[12:43] Evni (evnissyeen) entered chat range (19.76 m).

[12:43] Llewella (llewellas) entered chat range (19.10 m).

[12:43] Kati Evans: The thing I have discovered recently is really, caste rules are how I govern my day, how I behave.

[12:43] Ce que j'ai découvert récemment, c'est vraiment les règles de caste, c'est la façon dont je gouverne ma journée, comment je me comporte.

[12:44] Kati Evans: If I am rude and dishonorable I put a bad light on my caste and my city in the end.

[12:44] Si je suis impoli et déshonorant, je mets finalement une mauvaise lumière sur ma caste et ma ville.

[12:46] Kati Evans: The real rules that I need to pay attention to and use as a magistrate are those of the city I live in.  They may and probably are not exactly like those in outher cities.

[12:46] Les vraies règles auxquelles je dois faire attention et utiliser comme magistrat sont celles de la ville dans laquelle je vis. Ils peuvent et ne sont probablement pas exactement comme ceux des villes les plus à l'extérieur.

[12:46] Kati Evans: So where do I start in a difference between them ...

[12:46] Alors, par où commencer dans une différence entre eux ...

[12:47] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino) is offline.

[12:47] Kati Evans: first I start with am I the one who should be looking at the mater, and if it is mine how does it compart to the laws of my city.

[12:47] Je commence d'abord par moi qui devrait regarder le mater, et si c'est le mien, comment se compare aux lois de ma ville.

[12:49] Kati Evans: There are things I can not tell you... as a Magistrate, and for the fact it would be treason if I did.

[12:49] Il y a des choses que je ne peux pas vous dire ... en tant que magistrat, et pour le fait, ce serait une trahison si je le faisais.

[12:49] Iskander Jorgensson (dramirak) is online.

[12:50] Kati Evans: That is part of my job which make those requirements on me.

[12:50] Cela fait partie de mon travail qui fait ces exigences sur moi.

[12:51] ꝀȺɌ (karisima.stein): Thank you for your thoughtful response. The question has lingered in my thoughts for many years, and I truly appreciate you taking the time to share your perspective.

[12:51] Merci pour votre réponse réfléchie. La question a persisté dans mes pensées pendant de nombreuses années, et j'apprécie vraiment que vous preniez le temps de partager votre point de vue.

[12:51] Kati Evans: Did I miss anyones questions?

[12:51] Ai-je manqué des questions à quelqu'un?

[12:52] Kati Evans: I hope that I got you to think a little bit more about our world and the things in it.

[12:52] Llewella (llewellas) entered chat range (18.64 m).

[12:53] Muzzy (muzzy.daxter): I got a question

[12:53] J'ai une question

[12:53] Kati Evans: Truthfully I think you were being easy on me.

[12:53] À vrai dire je pense que tu étais facile avec moi.

[12:53] Kati Evans: Yes Muzzy

[12:53] Oui Muzzy

[12:53] Kiki Silverclaw-Jacobson (elphaba.jinxing) smiles

[12:53] / moi sourit

[12:54] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow) smiles and hollers, at 1PM SLT, we will have a lecture here with Sir Hermes Khan of Isfahan here at this space, Standardization in our Caste, Part 1

[12:54] / moi sourit et hurle, à 13 h Slt, nous aurons une conférence ici avec Sir Hermes Khan d'Isfahan ici dans cet espace, standardisation dans notre caste, partie 1

[12:54] Hermes (prinzensaft): Standardisation of the Calendar, only of the calendar! not of you, Mews!

[12:54] Standardisation du calendrier, uniquement du calendrier! Pas de toi, Mews!

[12:54] Trygg Tyran (tryggtyran) smiles  "Well done Kati"

[12:54] / moi sourit "Bravo Kati"

[12:54] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow): :P

[12:54] : P

[12:54] Armand deFleur (armand.wayfarer) smiles and applauds Lady Kati

[12:54] / moi sourit et applaudit Lady Kati

[12:55] Saku Takahashi 高橋 (mi.yuequi): claps

[12:55] applaudissements

[12:55] Kati Evans: I do another one on Sunday if you want to ask more

[12:55] J'en fais un autre dimanche si vous voulez en demander plus

[12:55] Kiki Silverclaw-Jacobson (elphaba.jinxing) stands and applauds Lady Kati

[12:55] Trygg Tyran (tryggtyran): "Well done Kati"

[12:55] / moi se lève et applaudit Lady Kati

[12:55] "Bravo Kati"

[12:55] Tyan Cabot (tyancabot): Thank you, Lady Kati

[12:55] Merci, Lady Kati

[12:55] Kati Evans: ..... Thank you all for the discussion today!

[12:55] ..... Merci à tous pour la discussion aujourd'hui!

[12:55] Kiki Silverclaw-Jacobson (elphaba.jinxing) smiles

[12:55] Davor O'Donnell (davoroflaura): applauds

[12:55] / moi sourit

[12:55] applauds

[12:55] Odette Atheria: Very well done, Kati.  Teletus is proud of you.

[12:55] Très bien fait, Kati.  Teletus est fier de vous.

[12:56] Hermes (prinzensaft): That was marvelous and I adore the format you propose!

[12:56] C'était merveilleux et j'adore le format que vous proposez!

[12:56] Kati Evans: If anyone ever wants to talk more, find me and we will.

[12:56] Si quelqu'un veut en parler plus, trouvez-moi et nous le ferons.

[12:56] Muzzy (muzzy.daxter): We all here asking questions what we can do and what we cant in GOR , i quit gor after 14 years and SL . my reasons were better than Norman's reasons of writing 36 books, unless its 37 now, i only read 36 . Question is there was no right or wrong boundaries in any book then why we create false codes, create boundaries in sl gor ?

[12:56] Nous nous demandons tous des questions ce que nous pouvons faire et ce que nous ne pouvons pas en Gor, j'ai quitté Gor après 14 ans et SL. Mes raisons étaient meilleures que les raisons de Norman d'écrire 36 livres, à moins que ce soit 37 maintenant, je ne lis que 36. Question y a-t-il pas de bonnes ou de mauvaises limites dans un livre, alors pourquoi nous créons de faux codes, créons des limites dans SL GOR?

[12:56] Abraham Jacobson (abrahamjacobs2): Hermes its your time

[12:56] Hermès c'est votre temps

[12:57] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow): because the books describe the world,. and people tent to take that as law; wish in false; one has to stay in a refgion perhaps described in but just one book; and rules fromt hat apply not rule from the 36 other books

[12:57] Odette Atheria is offline.

[12:57] Parce que les livres décrivent le monde,. et les gens tentent de prendre cela comme loi; Souhait en faux; Il faut rester dans une réfgion peut-être décrite dans mais un seul livre; et les règles du chapeau s'appliquent à ne pas la règle des 36 autres livres

[12:57] Hermes (prinzensaft): thank you Abe, give me 3 minutes please to prepare

[12:57] Merci Abe, donnez-moi 3 minutes s'il vous plaît pour préparer

[12:57] Tyan Cabot (tyancabot) is offline.

[12:58] Abraham Jacobson (abrahamjacobs2): Welcome to all of you for coming. This is put on by the SCoG

[12:58] Bienvenue à vous tous pour être venu. Ceci est mis par l'amplification

[12:58] Abraham Jacobson (abrahamjacobs2): Scribe Caste of Gor *

[12:58] secondLife: /// app / groupe / 32DAB270-3760-90BD-B5A0-348FAA2C7048 / À propos

[12:58] K A E L A (yenniferrivia) is offline.

========================================================================

[13:00] Kati Evans: How what that?

[13:00] Abraham Jacobson (abrahamjacobs2): very goood they all stayed

[13:00] Abraham Jacobson (abrahamjacobs2): which a a measurement of success

[13:03] Kati Evans: Yeah!

[13:04] Kati Evans: I was hoping they would.

=====================================================================

[12:31] Hermes (prinzensaft): that is a very good format that you propose there, the "Ask a magistrate anything", very inspiring!

[12:32] Kati Evans: Thank you, I love to teach this way.

[12:32] Kati Evans: Make people think a bit.

[12:38] Hermes (prinzensaft): right

[12:39] Hermes (prinzensaft): great outcome!

===================================================================

Debate 1 Fogaban and Victoria Forstander

[11:03] Abraham Jacobson (abrahamjacobs2): We have three judges, Lady Myriam, Kati and Kar. the prize will be 5000 L to the winner . Topic Resolved: That, in accordance with Gor’s male-dominant societal structure, women shall not be permitted to hold positions of authority such as Magistrate or Head of Caste within our caste.

[11:03] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino) is online.

[11:04] Abraham Jacobson (abrahamjacobs2): each of you take a side of the podium and tell us when you are yeady

[11:04] Turjann entered chat range (6.67 m).

[11:04] Abraham Jacobson (abrahamjacobs2): Fogaban will begin first

[11:05] Alyssa Himura Boa (finola.mayo) entered chat range (4.54 m).

[11:05] Tyan Cabot (tyancabot) entered chat range (13.07 m).

[11:05] Fogaban: Greetings every, our Host and the Lady Forstander

[11:05] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino) "I'm ready. First its a blessing to see you all. I've not been out of the Sardar since the last fair. My son brought me out. Its good to see you all here still standing, and shining in your colors." She looks to Fogoban.

[11:06] Fogaban: To begin ..........

[11:06] Fogaban: I must preface this debate by saying that I mostly agree with the esteemed Lady’s position.

However, for the sake of this gathering, the impact on cultural possibilities and just for the fun of it, I have decided to participate.

[11:06] Carlosliraa entered chat range (4.05 m).

[11:06] Anatisti Foulsbane entered chat range (13.07 m).

[11:06] Fogaban: To say "women SHALL NOT be permitted to hold positions of authority such as Magistrate or Head of Caste" is a very arbitrary and definitive statement.

[11:07] Fogaban: I have always cautioned against such blanket statements.

However . . . one never knows.

[11:07] Fogaban: To first establish that there are, in fact, women Scribes . . .

[11:07] Fogaban: Of course there are, you say? Well, there ARE women in the Caste of Warriors but there are no women Warriors.

[11:07] Miray Foulsbane (michellesia) entered chat range (8.06 m).

[11:07] Ruqiya Hiɱʋɾɑ Bσɑ Hɑɗes (pitu.pearl) entered chat range (5.20 m).

[11:07] Fogaban: So, are there women Scribes? We have this reference:

This hairdo here, on Crystal, with the bun in the back, is favored by many free women of the scribes.

Kajira of Gor     Book 19     Page 292

[11:08] Fogaban: And this one:

"Disgusting! Disgusting!" cried the free woman, one veiled and wearing the robes of the scribes, standing in the audience. "Pull down your skirt, you slave, you brazen hussy!"

Players of Gor     Book 20     Page 121

[11:08] Fogaban: So, indeed, there are women Scribes.

What is to be established is, to what degree are women involved in "caste work".

[11:08] Fogaban: I now yield to the Lady ......

[11:08] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow): wel some of the topics and or discusions are fun

[11:09] zCS # [Mod] Armand Wayfarer switched from [Away] to [RP].

[11:09] Arealius (arealius.barbosa) is online.

[11:10] Tuuli Himura Boa (solea.celestia) entered chat range (7.13 m).

[11:10] Dawn Lane (dawnna.lane) is online.

[11:11] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino) takes a deep breath, "Fogaban, just let me know when I can bite."

[11:12] Fogaban: My apologies, Lady. Yes, please ........ bite  *smiles*

[11:12] Roshan Himura Boa (aarondaegal) entered chat range (4.91 m).

[11:12] ƈɨʟɨӼ Ӽʊռ (xunfu) grins

[11:12] Xunfu fr>en grin

[11:12] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino) shakes her head, "no apologies needed. I'm honored by the weight on your shoulders and I want to thank you for everything you've done for Gor. I'd like to begin with my opening statement if that's well with you?"

[11:13] Dawn Lane (dawnna.lane) is offline.

[11:13] Sʏᴀɴ ʜɪᴍᴜʀᴀ ʙᴏᴀ (syan.spicy) entered chat range (7.35 m).

[11:13] Arealius (arealius.barbosa) is offline.

[11:13] Fogaban: *tips his head*

[11:13] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino) inclines hers

[11:15] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): Esteemed Forgaban, noble citizens, and worthy opponents—thank you for granting me the floor this day.

We convene to debate not merely protocol, but principle: whether, under the established male-dominant structure of Gor, a free woman might justly—or at least pragmatically—assume positions of authority such as Magistrate, Head of Caste, Tatrix, or Ubara, when the male alternatives are absent, inactive, or unfit.

I begin with a premise grounded in both lore and logic: leadership is not a birthright of gender, but a burden of competence. In the vast sweep of Gorean history, power has rested in hands able to wield it—not merely in those born to it. To deny authority to a capable free woman, merely because of her sex, is to deprive a sim of stability, governance, and continuity.

[11:16] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): John Norman’s texts do stress the primacy of male mastery and male rule—this is not a fiction one lightly disputes. Yet even within his works, there are glimmers of balanced function: scribes, ambassadors, advisors, and women of influence weave the threads of administration behind the scenes.

For example, though not overtly ruling in many cities, free women sometimes influence or counsel through the pen, the scroll, the voice of diplomacy. In Tarnsman of Gor, we see women who petition, who act, who affect outcomes—even if not always in open office.

[11:17] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): It is not her sex that makes a woman unfit to rule—it is only absence, ignorance, lethargy, or lack of skill that disqualifies. If a man sits as Magistrate but never attends his duties, never adjudicates, never leads, then the city suffers. In such a void, I say, the mantle of office should pass to the competent, regardless of gender—so long as she remains properly subject to overarching male authority in matters of dominance.

In the case of Tatrix in Corcyrus, a city that has traditionally looked to martial strength and political cunning, a woman may not casually assume the lion’s share—yet if her character, presence, decisiveness, knowledge, and loyalty are proven, she may maintain the order until the city’s warrior caste again produces a capable male. The same for Ubara: the office of Ubara is martial, symbolic, and inspiring. But if the male Ubara is absent, imprisoned, unwilling, or incompetent, then a free woman functioning as an acting Ubara may serve better than a vacuum of leadership.

[11:18] Vougan (vougankar) is online.

[11:18] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): In short: the sim’s welfare must temper rigid dogma. To hold power one must earn it—not simply receive it by anatomical accident. If a man is physically present, able, and committed, he should rightfully hold the role. But if he is gone, idle, or unwilling, a free woman of proven capability should, in my view, be empowered to step in, under the structures of Gor, to keep governance alive rather than let the domain shrivel.

I await my noble opponent’s arguments — and trust our debate will sharpen our understanding of both the ideal and the possible in Gorean society.

[11:21] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): I have several quotes: “A Gorean slave girl in the presence of a free man or woman always kneels, unless excused from doing so.”

— Captive of Gor (cited in LibQuotes) 

Lib Quotes

This is a clean, short rule-of-society quote. It doesn’t directly address free women in power, but it underscores Norman’s conception of hierarchical behavior in social settings.

[11:22] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): “No man who has seen a woman in Pleasure Silk, or watched her dance, or heard the sound of a belled ankle or watched a woman's hair, unbound, fall to her waist can long live without the possession of such a delicious creature.”

— Outlaw of Gor 

Goodreads

Very sensual; more about attraction and objectification. Useful if you want to show how Norman often frames women in terms of aesthetic and sensual roles, rather than political authority.

[11:22] Violet Thiessam (ayiranayo) is offline.

[11:23] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): My stance on the matter was that I was supposed to be opposed. But how can I do such a thing, when I've held positions of power including High Magistrate, Magistrate and Head of Caste, High Scribe, and there are free women here who have as well. I would be denying us.

[11:24] Abraham Jacobson (abrahamjacobs2): Fogaban's turn

[11:24] Anon Haven entered chat range (13.08 m).

[11:25] Marcas MacNeill  (marcasmacneill) entered chat range (15.32 m).

[11:25] Abraham Jacobson (abrahamjacobs2): Remember, 250 work replies

[11:25] MonaElaisa entered chat range (15.37 m).

[11:25] Arealius (arealius.barbosa) is online.

[11:26] Fogaban: *to the Judges and audience ...* There has been a mixup on my part. I was under the impression that I was taking the "side" that women SHOULD be allowed positions of authority. In other words the same "side" as the Lady. And thus I have not prepared a basis for rebuttal

[11:26] zCS # [Mod] Anon Haven switched from [OOC] to [RP].

[11:26] zCS # [Mod] MarcasMacNeill Resident switched from [Combat] to [OOC].

[11:27] Alyssa Himura Boa (finola.mayo): Well, that is excellent, we are all agreed on this

[11:27] Hermes (prinzensaft): oh no!

[11:27] zCS # [Mod] MonaElaisa Resident switched from [OOC] to [RP].

[11:28] Hermes (prinzensaft): ok let's go do astronomy then!

[11:28] Kati Evans: I want to hear what Fogaban had to say.

[11:28] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): I thought he would be opposed too and I would come in defending.

[11:28] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): If we do however, play by the books completely, we all of its brutality, then we wouldn't even be here right now but locked up in a house, in a cage, chained to a bed, or stuck on a building without permission from a free man who might be flying a tarn, or stitching up a dying man, or writing his fiftieth tome.

[11:28] Abraham Jacobson (abrahamjacobs2): Agreed

[11:28] Fogaban: To be honest, I cannot come up with a valid reason from the books where the overall theme precludes a woman holding a position of authority (outside the Caste of Warriors)

[11:28] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): I think we both agree free women can hold office if they are fit for it, not just for favoritism, familial ties or sim ownership?

[11:28] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): being the owner of the sim doesn't mean you need to be Ubara

[11:28] Rofla entered chat range (8.28 m).

[11:29] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): it is easier to hand power than to have all of it

[11:29] Turjann smiles, nodding

[11:30] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow) would say it depends wither you conform to the old ways, or the current sl gor ways; a true Gorean obviously would say, its a mens worl a women free or slave may not take what is desired from men, this thus be caste, duties or job, or possession. In current lands that would not fly and lead to an uprise soon after; but book wise is what it is, the only authority there is a men questioning a other man.

[11:30] Fogaban: Follow along with me as I present what I was going to say ..........

[11:30] Fogaban: The women of a given caste, it should be noted, OFTEN DO NOT (but not never) engage in caste work. For example, a woman in the Metalworkers does not, COMMONLY, (perhaps it is uncommon, but still conceivable) work at the forge, nor is a woman of the Builders LIKELY (yes, it would be unlikely, however still possible) to be found supervising the construction of fortifications.

Fighting Slave of Gor     Book 14     Page 209

A notable exception to the generalization that women of a given caste NORMALLY  DO NOT (but could) engage in caste work is the caste of Physicians, whose women are commonly trained, as are the boys, in the practice of medicine.

Fighting Slave of Gor     Book 14     Page 210

If the Caste of Scribes were also an excellent example, this would have been the perfect place to point that out.

Instead of proof there are no female Magistrates of Heads of Caste, this aforementioned example in Book 14 opens the possibility that there could be.

[11:30] Ruqiya Hiɱʋɾɑ Bσɑ Hɑɗes (pitu.pearl) listens careful and makes some mental notes, she surely would have some topics to talk about with her brothers and companion once they are at home, but for now she remains quiet

[11:30] Zane Kanze is offline.

[11:30] Trygg Tyran (tryggtyran) nods in approval, taking notes

[11:31] Velniar Esharham: In my veiw if I may  t a ubar is voted for by the warriors,, its not a inheritance.. as well as scribes vote to a administrator when there is peace...  Least that was my understanding.

[11:31] Fogaban: Many Free Women work in Gorean society. Many, meaning it is not rare.

"Many free women work," said Cabot. "Even free women of the upper castes often work. Not all have slaves or servants. Too, work is quite common with free women of the lower castes."

Kur of Gor     Book 28     Page 450

I believe all of you would agree that to be an effective Scribe, one must study.

Even a brilliant woman, witty and articulate, LEARNED, of the high Scribes, collared, her blue robes exchanged for a rag, must apply herself to NEW STUDIES, the use of her lips and tongue, of her small fingers and glossy hair.

Mariners of Gor     Book 30     Page 292

To be NEW studies . . . there must have been OLD studies.

If the woman Scribe is just "background support, housekeeper, meal preparer - or just a file clerk", she would not need to study. She would not be "learned". If she were learning the CRAFT of a Scribe, these studies now make sense.

Nowhere do the books provide an example of a woman of the Caste of Scribes holding the

[11:31] Fogaban:  office of Magistrate or Head of Caste.

But on the other hand, nowhere do the books say it is forbidden.

And lastly, if you have a problem with women in authority, in a male-dominant societal structure, don’t you just hate the ramifications of the history of Tharna?

[11:32] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): although, there would be free women in power who could use that RP, to twist the plot of the sim politically, but that is something that has to do with the story of the sim, and where its headed and usually its a wide plot. There are sims who practice "Advanced Gorean RP" where OOC and IC are clear, and everyone has their emotions where they should. Caste work is not expected from free women. At all. We could be sitting on a cushion, eating cookies and shuffling through all of the gossip from our kajirae and our kajirii all day long while the men die. I'm with Fogoban on Tharna, it was brought up and led by women, and they created their own roles, and their own titles off of the constitution of Ar. They wore masks and their men vowed to them all up until Tarl Cabot showed up

[11:33] Nephtides na Neidos (nephtides) is offline.

[11:33] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): Free women who are considered outlaws in cities, in the civilized Gor, even in villages with law, as I expect you all to know how far laws go, and this is for city laws, civility, judicial. I'm not talking about merchant laws that are rewritten and agreed upon four times a year (not in SL, but in the books)

[11:34] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): they are tribal, wild, marked, naked, with weapons and game of their own, panthers, talunas, and those further south who are cannibals

[11:34] Abraham Jacobson (abrahamjacobs2) is offline.

[11:34] Abraham Jacobson (abrahamjacobs2) entered chat range (3.94 m).

[11:34] Abraham Jacobson (abrahamjacobs2) is online.

[11:34] zCS # [Mod] abrahamjacobs2 Resident [RP] logged into the region.

[11:34] ꝀȺɌ (karisima.stein) smiles beneath the veil, then speaks with quiet conviction.

"I agree — women are capable of holding power and rising to positions of influence. Yet even in such roles, it serves her well to carry herself with grace and decorum. After all, we dwell in a world shaped by men. And though she may possess the knowledge and the skill, her place is permitted  because men allow it.

[11:35] Fogaban: I concede this debate to the Lady and next time I will make sure I understand which position I am defending...... *chuckles*

[11:35] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): these women of the wild, they are supposed to be captured, collarded, branded and sold, but some are lucky to be traded with, to be offered commerce. They come dressed up like free. Like us. veiled, covered, hidden

[11:35] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): this is why the magistrates ask for those thighs and should always

[11:35] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): Fogaban, I think we are on the same page but I have something for you

[11:36] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): I miss a Gor where free men were here

[11:36] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): where they would melt me with one post

[11:36] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow): some of those, are still around

[11:36] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow): but flad the.. lands.. of.. drama and about~

[11:37] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): I did have a wild wild grand old time holding roles of power, getting killed, undermined. My companions took it all if I didn't play harder

[11:37] Ruqiya Hiɱʋɾɑ Bσɑ Hɑɗes (pitu.pearl): is that the restricted men thing we where talking about? *she whispers to mews*

[11:37] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): there will always be a challenge for us

[11:37] Abraham Jacobson (abrahamjacobs2): OK we will devide the 5000 L eaqually

[11:37] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): I'm not talking about the kings of mesh or those with 50 weeapons

[11:37] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow) smirkles at Ruqyia

[11:37] Abraham Jacobson (abrahamjacobs2): they both came prepaired and eloquent

[11:37] Alyssa Himura Boa (finola.mayo): me winks at her daughter

[11:37] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): I'm not talking about the ones with the slave girls looking more decorated than me

[11:38] Abraham Jacobson (abrahamjacobs2): Myriam please give the money out.

[11:38] Hermes (prinzensaft): chuckles

[11:38] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): but the ones who know how to make both of us know who exactly who we are when we are standing next to them

[11:38] zCS # [Mod] VoxSin Resident switched from [Combat] to [Away].

[11:38] Abraham Jacobson (abrahamjacobs2): Next is lady Kati on Ask the Magistrate . when you are ready Kati and they are finished

[11:39] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): for positions of powers and who can hold them, go to the rules of the sim and the owners, and also elections, compaigns, let both free men and free women run, and the best one win

[11:39] Anatisti Foulsbane: A gorean women should only choose betwenn freedom and love

[11:39] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): I don't like restricted roles for either of us

[11:39] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): as much as I hate the Home Stone swapping game

[11:39] Ruqiya Hiɱʋɾɑ Bσɑ Hɑɗes (pitu.pearl): Pardon? *she turns her head in slowmotion to Anastasi*

[11:39] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): we are only supposed to have one but tier says, get ready to pledge on a weekly basis

[11:39] Alyssa Himura Boa (finola.mayo) follows the look

[11:40] ꝀȺɌ (karisima.stein): Will always choose Freedom over love. ' chuckles'

[11:40] Hermes (prinzensaft): Slaves, secure the knives and hair needles!

[11:40] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): thank you all for hearing me out and thank you to the women

[11:40] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): thank you to Fogoban for letting me go off

[11:40] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow): i tiell you a tale; of old times gor, the setting is Oasis of Nine wells; in the year 2007 before some of you where even born... i owned a kajira, a beaty on it's own, in arabic silsk she danced and swoomed the lands, a men desired her; and while i was of catse of physicians, it helped not; he desired, what i had, and so the slave was taken from me; thats gor, and how it was; and as i had no companion to argue it, she this slave went lost to me, and gor soon after. Thats what was and no longer is; the changes that came. Are they good or bad, be upon ones own self to ponder, mews would say :)

[11:40] Tariq ibn Joshao al Samini (kitten.serpente): @

[11:40] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): did they even challenge you, Mews?

[11:41] Fogaban: *chuckles* Even though we do not share a Home Stone, I know better than to get in the middle of that.

[11:41] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): there is no way in Gorean hell that you can lose your girl without a fight

[11:41] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow): i am a free women,. i can not chalange a warior

[11:41] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): You can get a champion, you can get a fighter

[11:41] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): pay someone

[11:41] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): but don't lose

[11:41] Tariq ibn Joshao al Samini (kitten.serpente): NodNodNod

[11:41] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): without trying

[11:41] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): its easier to fight for us than to rescue us

[11:41] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow): again times are difrent now

[11:42] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow): back then one had to accept that;

[11:42] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): totally agree

[11:42] Isabela (jennifer.elara) entered chat range (4.37 m).

[11:42] Tariq ibn Joshao al Samini (kitten.serpente): We have to remember that Norman in RL began writing his books as a reaction to modern Feminism, and there is thus a strong male dominance in the books.  but we also have to remember this issue of a woman ruling in a male dominated society has existed in RL societies since ancient Athens and Hypatia, the woman philosopher and Hapshetsut the female pharaoh..  We see societies deal with this in different ways ( excuse my spelling )

[11:42] Isabela (jennifer.elara): freetings everyone

[11:42] Jennifer Elara fr>en: freeryone freezing

[11:42] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): Tariq, even if we go biblical, it is a blessing to be under the rule of a man, but there would be no savior if he had not been given birth to by a woman

[11:43] Tariq ibn Joshao al Samini (kitten.serpente): Yes

[11:43] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): now we have Tarid, a blessed one. Do you know how hard its to be an initiate these days?

[11:43] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): its as hard to be a free woman and not be undermined

[11:43] Tariq ibn Joshao al Samini (kitten.serpente): Oh, yes.  LOL

[11:43] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow) chukles

[11:43] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): i don't even know how you all keep your caste alive when no one prays. We are supposed to be killing animals 4 times a year

[11:43] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow): hay look gor now!

[11:43] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): to make our "city grow"

[11:43] Hermes (prinzensaft): looks at Melampus with a curious look

[11:43] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow): an initiate and a kurrii in one room ! :P

[11:43] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): now we close the sims 4 times a year

[11:44] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): if there is a Kurii here please take me

[11:44] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow): okay..

[11:44] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): I haven't had fun since the first Ar closed

[11:44] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow) colalrs the vic

[11:44] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): just kidding

[11:44] Tariq ibn Joshao al Samini (kitten.serpente): There are BtB no women in my Caste.  What I tell female avis who want to change this is -- CREATYE A MALE AVI and shut up!

[11:44] Alyssa Himura Boa (finola.mayo) growls and pretends she is a Kur

[11:44] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino): my son would lose his wits

[11:44] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow) giggles

Scribe Summit - Lecture 3 - Lady Myriam: The Use of Rumour in SL Newspapers

 

[10:11] Myriam-alyah Spires (noirnyte.spires): Tal and Greetings, ~Scribes of Gor -i am so sorry for being later than anticipated

[10:12] Myriam-alyah Spires (noirnyte.spires): I hope all of you enjoyed the ceremony and please allow me to introduce myself. I am am Lady Myriam-Alyah Spires, I am a scribe (educated by Abraham Jacobson) up to the standard of a Magistrate so i am not a teacher by profession. This is a new topic so i apologize if it is not perfected.

The topic: The use of rumor in SL Newspapers 
With a subheading of 'Whispers of Power: Gossip, Rumor, Propaganda and Conjecture in Gorean Society & News '

[10:14] Myriam-alyah Spires (noirnyte.spires): Today we’re going to explore how information — and misinformation — shapes power in our Gorean World (from John Norman’s Gorean Series.)

[10:14] Myriam-alyah Spires (noirnyte.spires): On Gor, truth is rarely neutral. Gossip, rumor, propaganda, and conjecture are not just background noise — they are weapons, tools of survival, and instruments of control.

[10:14] Myriam-alyah Spires (noirnyte.spires): Before we dive in, let’s define our terms:

[10:14] shanni (shannondoa) is offline.

[10:15] Myriam-alyah Spires (noirnyte.spires): Gossip: casual talk, often personal, spread informally.

[10:15] Freya Hedwig (sparklingjewelri) is online.

[10:15] Myriam-alyah Spires (noirnyte.spires): Rumor: unverified information, often with political or social consequences.

[10:15] Sara Valgard (alluring.waggletail) is online.

[10:15] Myriam-alyah Spires (noirnyte.spires): Propaganda: deliberate shaping of opinion through selective or distorted information.

[10:15] Myriam-alyah Spires (noirnyte.spires): Conjecture: speculation, interpretation, or assumption presented as truth.

[10:16] Myriam-alyah Spires (noirnyte.spires): In Gor there are often diverse ways of imparting information than those found on earth,

[10:16] Zane Kanze is online.

[10:16] Myriam-alyah Spires (noirnyte.spires): “It is commonly one of the first boards in Ar to be inscribed,” he said. “Men often come here to learn the news, before it appears on the larger, more popular boards, those in the plazas and markets, those raised near the juncture of major avenues and boulevards, and so on.”

[10:17] shanni (shannondoa) is online.

[10:17] shanni (shannondoa) entered chat range (3.06 m).

[10:17] zCS # [Mod] Shannondoa Resident [RP] logged into the region.

[10:18] Kaiko Mikoto (luelar.edwyn) is offline.

[10:18] Myriam-alyah Spires (noirnyte.spires): what is critical to understand is that the news does not always come in nice rence papers, and printed like we know them, “And what is the news?” I asked. “Who knows what it is to be,” he said. “I do not understand,” I said. “The board was sponged,” he said. “What was news is no longer news,” I said. “Do not despair,” he said. “New news, more appropriate news, more fitting news, will soon appear.” “I see,” I said. “I have seen such things before,” he said. “The responses of citizens to the news were being monitored,” I said. “And recorded by attendant scribes,” he said. “Glory to an objective, free press,” I said. “What?” he said. “Nothing,” I said. “I was thinking of something else, somewhere else.” .... so there is here a hint at the point of view that the newspapers contents is not just editable at the point of print but also at the point of posting!

[10:19] Myriam-alyah Spires (noirnyte.spires): These public boards are subject to change and confirmation as rumor is confirmed or solidified:  

This had been admitted on the public boards at last. Originally it had been rumored, which rumors had been denied, that only a surrogate for the stone had appeared in the Planting Feast.

[10:20] Myriam-alyah Spires (noirnyte.spires): The information from these Newspaper boards is further disseminated by those looking to make profit from it:

[10:20] Myriam-alyah Spires (noirnyte.spires): I was approached twice by men who had small scrolls to sell, reputedly containing important information on forthcoming races, the tarns to be flown, their riders, their times recorded in previous races and such; I supposed this would be little more than what was publicly available on the large track boards, and was copied from them; on the other hand, such men always claimed to have important information not contained on the public boards. I knew that when there was such information it would not be to such men that it would be known.

[10:22] Myriam-alyah Spires (noirnyte.spires): Gossip and Rumour do play central parts in the Newspaper and our interactions

[10:22] Myriam-alyah Spires (noirnyte.spires): On Gor, gossip is social currency. 

Gossip defined as: Unverified information or details about someone or something, often spread through informal communication. Gossip can be defined as the casual or idle talk about the personal or private affairs of others. It typically involves sharing information or rumors about someone's personal life, relationships, or actions. Gossip can originate from various sources, including friends, family members, colleagues, or even strangers. It often spreads through informal conversations and during social gatherings

[10:23] Kallis (jinny.enyo) is offline.

[10:23] shar Silverclaw-Jacobson  (shar.boxen) is online.

[10:23] Myriam-alyah Spires (noirnyte.spires): Key Aspect:  

May contain elements of truth but often exaggerated or distorted.  

Can be spread for several reasons, such as entertainment, manipulation, or to gain attention and can arrive in newspapers via these sources mentioned before.

[10:24] Myriam-alyah Spires (noirnyte.spires): Among slaves, gossip is a survival tool. They whisper about their Masters, rival households, or city politics. These whispers can warn, comfort, or even subtly resist authority.

[10:24] Myriam-alyah Spires (noirnyte.spires): “What is the news, Tina?” I asked. “About what?” she asked. “About anything,” I said. “There is not much,” she said. “There is some fear for the Sa-Tarna crop, because of the great deal of rain. There is going to be a celebration in Ar because of the birthday of Marlenus, the Ubar there. Lactantius thinks that is important.” “Is there any news from the west?” I asked. “The usual,” she said. “What is that?” I asked. “You have heard about the escape of the Tatrix of Corcyrus?” she asked. “No,” I said. “That is strange,” she said. “It happened some days ago. There is a great search on for her.” “I did not know that,” I said. “Where do they think she went?” “No one knows,” said Tina. “Oh,” I said. “There is now a reward of a thousand gold pieces for her,” she said. “That is a great deal of money,” I said. I felt sick. “Tina,” I said. “Yes?” she said. “Lactantius, your master, is from Ar’s Station. What is he doing on this road?

[10:25] Myriam-alyah Spires (noirnyte.spires): In some instances gossip, can be fiscally advantageous to a Slaver: "Also, as Cernus doubtless intended, the delay would give his delicately seeded rumors, pertaining to the desirability of barbarians, time to circulate, time to stimulate the imagination and inflame the curiosity of potential buyers. I gather his planning must have been successful, for sales generally in Ar during the first two months of the New Year were down somewhat from seasonal norms, as though Ar's gold for slaves was being held somewhat, in anticipation of the Love Feast."

[10:26] Finn Cadogan (lysander.tyran) is offline.

[10:26] Myriam-alyah Spires (noirnyte.spires): For a politician or to someone who is interested in destablising a place they may influence the high council of a city by starting rumors that provoke: 

"Perhaps Marlenus of Ar has returned," I said. I thought that an excellent rumor to start."

[10:27] Myriam-alyah Spires (noirnyte.spires): Ambassadors that can utilise the ‘grey’ caste of spies, also send out misinformation untilising the news and noticeboards to do so: 

“Spies have not suggested that she is on Tyros or Cos,” he said. “I find that unlikely, too, given times and shipping, and the unlikelihood that her presence would be undetected on either island. Indeed, Chenbar, he of Tyros, and Lurius, he of Cos, would presumably flaunt her presence if she were luxuriating within the compass of their hospitality, if only to spite Argentum, and Ar. I think she is here, as it would seem the last place one might look. Too, there are rumors that she is here. Indeed, some have even claimed to have seen her here. In any event, I shall search here.”

[10:28] Myriam-alyah Spires (noirnyte.spires): Certain places are more of a hot bed for information or gossip than others, unsurprisingly the Paga Taverns are one, but not the only place: 

“I would that news was in the air,” said Xenon, “as well as the fumes of pagaPaga.” “It is,” I said. “We must essay the inquiry.” “Do so,” said Seremides. “This is an Ahn when men grow loquacious, having drunk enough to regale one another, but not enough to lapse into somnolence.” “Be discreet,” said Xenon. “We are strangers here. It is dangerous.” “The hunter who would snare game,”

[10:28] Myriam-alyah Spires (noirnyte.spires): Xenon occasionally brought us news, largely picked up in the Mariner’s Pleasure, and assisted in diverse tasks.

[10:29] Myriam-alyah Spires (noirnyte.spires): I cried to Thurnock. "Release all the slaves! Send them throughout the city, to the wharves, the taverns, the arsenal, the piazzas, the markets, everywhere! Tell them to cry out the news! Tell them to tell everyone that there is a Home Stone in Port Kar!"

[10:29] Yara Crisp is online.

[10:29] Velniar Esharham is online.

[10:31] Myriam-alyah Spires (noirnyte.spires): Groups and regions in the world of Gor treat rumor differently. The truth is that: 

A rumor of an insult or outrage, not inquired closely into, perhaps by intent, will suffice. A good fight, I have heard men of the Tahari say, licking their lips, justifies any cause. This is not to say those of other regions would not take insults the same way but just that they are less likely to take offence in other places. *smiles and looks up*

[10:32] Myriam-alyah Spires (noirnyte.spires): Rumors often have a pinch of truth and "Our most important single source of information," said Hup, "was the girls of the baths, particularly the Capacian. There is little in Ar that is not known in the baths. These girls were invaluable, both in the acquisition of information and in the arrangement of contacts. It was through the girls of the baths that the plans for the uprising were transmitted to those who would follow Marlenus."

[10:34] Myriam-alyah Spires (noirnyte.spires): Additionally, this ‘baths’ is also source of information regarding the ‘appearance’ of the free women, for free companionship contracts. Slaves are paid to give further information of the women. Free women by their nature are covered with their many (up to 8) layers of veils and they are therefore rarely seen outside of family without the coverings, so to find out about the appearance of a free woman, enough to perhaps distinguish her from another is a rare opportunity or ahead of a proposed courtship, or even for a slaver looking for a certain girl to fill the requirements of a buyer! All of which can feed into the rumor mill and gossip of a city and find its way into the newspapers

[10:34] shar Silverclaw-Jacobson  (shar.boxen) entered chat range (17.68 m).

[10:34] Velniar Esharham entered chat range (18.80 m).

[10:35] Kaysie Michigan is offline.

[10:35] Myriam-alyah Spires (noirnyte.spires): The slaves of a city love nothing more than hearing of a disgrace or collaring of a Free Woman and indeed it often makes the gossip column pages or if particular salacious the front page.

[10:36] Myriam-alyah Spires (noirnyte.spires): Rumor, however, is more dangerous. 

Defined as: Unverified or unconfirmed information or story that is widely circulated, often through word of mouth. Rumor, on the other hand, refers to unverified or unconfirmed information or stories that circulate among people. Unlike gossip, rumors can involve a wide range of topics, including news events, political developments, or celebrity scandals. Rumors can emerge from different sources, such as anonymous tips, media speculation, or even deliberate misinformation campaigns. They can spread rapidly through word of mouth, online forums, or news outlets.

[10:36] Myriam-alyah Spires (noirnyte.spires): This is what we find being utilized in the news of Gor, gossip is not the same as rumor, yes contains elements of truth, but often exaggerated or distort and can be spread for various reasons, such as entertainment, manipulation, but additionally to it can be used to create confusion. Rumor is also likely to reach a wider audience than the usual ‘gossip’ which tends to stay in smaller relational groups

[10:37] Myriam-alyah Spires (noirnyte.spires): Both Gossip and Rumor however tend to linger into long term memory especially if widely believed but rumor has more insidious undercurrents. Rumors, on the other hand, can have broader implications beyond individual harm. In the context of public figures or organizations, rumors can influence public opinion, shape political discourse, or impact stock markets. False or misleading rumors can lead to panic, misinformation, or even social unrest. The consequences of rumors can be far-reaching, affecting not only the individuals directly involved but also society.

[10:37] Myriam-alyah Spires (noirnyte.spires): Rumors, often emerge in situations where there is a lack of official information or when people are seeking answers to uncertain events. Rumors can serve as a coping mechanism, helping individuals make sense of ambiguous situations or reducing anxiety by providing a semblance of understanding. They can also act as a catalyst for social change, sparking discussions, mobilizing communities, or challenging existing power structures.

[10:38] Myriam-alyah Spires (noirnyte.spires): In cities like Ar or Ko-ro-ba, rumors can destabilize alliances. 

Marcus and I were on the Avenue of the Central Cylinder, the major thoroughfare in Ar. "The major blow," said he, "was doubtless the movement of the Home Stone to Telnus." This had been admitted on the public boards at last. Originally it had been rumored, which rumors had been denied, that only a surrogate for the stone had appeared in the Planting Feast. Later, however, when the ceremony of citizenship, in which the Home Stone figures, was postponed, speculation had become rampant.

[10:39] Finn Cadogan (lysander.tyran) is online.

[10:39] Myriam-alyah Spires (noirnyte.spires): “I would that news was in the air,” said Xenon, “as well as the fumes of Paga.” “It is,” I said. “We must essay the inquiry.” “Do so,” said Seremides. “This is an Ahn when men grow loquacious, having drunk enough to regale one another, but not enough to lapse into somnolence.” “Be discreet,” said Xenon. “We are strangers here. It is dangerous.” “The hunter who would snare game,”

[10:40] Myriam-alyah Spires (noirnyte.spires): A whispered claim that a general is corrupt, or that a city is preparing for war, can spread panic before any official word is given. 

"I fear they are everywhere," said the captain. "Who?" I asked. "The Delta Brigade," he said. I myself, in a Paga tavern or two, some days ago, had dropped this expression, mentioning it as though it were one I had heard somewhere, and was curious to understand. I was pleased to note that it was now common currency in Ar. Such are the wings of rumors.

[10:40] Myriam-alyah Spires (noirnyte.spires): Why, I asked myself, should Cos and Tyros consider bringing their fleets against Port Kar? What had changed? But then I recalled that nothing had changed. It was only a rumor, one which, it seemed, recurred at least every year in Port Kar. Doubtless there were similar rumors, raising their small stirs, in the councils of Cos and Tyros

[10:43] Myriam-alyah Spires (noirnyte.spires): An astutute and thinking Gorean Citizen would of course ask questions in relation to the source and where possible it is clearly adviseable for an editor to name their sources, However, there are no laws guarding a free press, no laws guarding sources, so rumour has a special place in Gor, where the mill churns out information for the masses. “I understand, Citizen,” I said, casually, “that news flames, that Talena of Ar, the overthrown, treasonous, fugitive Ubara of Ar has at last been captured.” I was in one of Jad’s sul markets. “That is news,” said the tunicked seller of brown suls. “Where did this take place, and how did it come about?”

[10:44] Myriam-alyah Spires (noirnyte.spires): “Can you think of a modern example where a rumor spread faster than the truth?”  

For me these falls into the region of misinformation and onlineisms, we can find where the quotes from the books are not adhered to. 

BTB Quotes  

Gorean Cave As a resource for Gor – limitation if taken out of context 

City Laws are not always ‘Gorean Laws’ - City laws are often adapted to ensure that the widest and most ‘liberal’ laws are present, to allow for people to adapt to Gor and bring in many people people of various levels into a sim. If we were to take the city laws of Ar and use them as the laws for other cities, these would not necessarily encourage the widest group possible.

[10:44] Yara Crisp is offline.

[10:44] Myriam-alyah Spires (noirnyte.spires): Now we move to propaganda, the deliberate shaping of public opinion. 

Definition of Propaganda is Information, especially of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote a particular political cause or point of view. Propaganda is typically spread by governments, organizations, or individuals with a specific agenda, while rumours are often spread informally among individuals. Propaganda is usually more organized and deliberate. The intent of propaganda is usually to promote a particular viewpoint or agenda, often by using misleading or biased information. Propaganda is often used to manipulate public opinion, sway elections, or justify controversial actions.

[10:45] Myriam-alyah Spires (noirnyte.spires): Propaganda is often created by those in positions of power or authority, which can give it a sense of credibility to some people. However, propaganda is also known for using deceptive tactics and misinformation to achieve its goals. Rumors, on the other hand, are typically seen as less credible because they are often based on hearsay or speculation. Rumors can easily be distorted or exaggerated as they are passed from person to person. Propaganda can have a significant impact on public opinion, political decisions, and social movements. It can shape the way people think about certain issues or events and can influence their behavior.

[10:46] Lađγ Lïv Thε Hσŋεγ Mεŗcɧanŧ (cherry.rabbit) is offline.

[10:47] Lađγ Lïv Thε Hσŋεγ Mεŗcɧanŧ (cherry.rabbit) is online.

[10:47] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow) entered chat range (10.96 m).

[10:47] Myriam-alyah Spires (noirnyte.spires): The Caste of Scribes: They are the record-keepers, the journalists of Gor. But their “truth” is often shaped by the interests of rulers. History is written not as it happened, but as it should be remembered. 

 “The board was sponged,” he said. “What was news is no longer news,” I said. “Do not despair,” he said. “New news, more appropriate news, more fitting news, will soon appear.” “I see,” I said. “I have seen such things before,” he said. “The responses of citizens to the news were being monitored,” I said. “And recorded by attendant scribes,” he said. “Glory to an objective, free press,” I said. “What?” he said. “Nothing,” I said. “I was thinking of something else, somewhere else.” .... it is therefore important to realise that the person paying the gold, often makes the story or article in fheir own favour, and this can be a challenge in news that goes around Gor.

[10:48] Myriam-alyah Spires (noirnyte.spires): City-State Rivalries: In the wars between Ar and Cos, propaganda is rampant. Each city paints itself as noble and just, while portraying the other as barbaric and dishonorable. Public proclamations, staged ceremonies, and selective news all serve to rally citizens. 

There had been, I knew, exchanges of information between Claudius, regent for Henrius Sevarius, and Cos and Tyros. I was not disposed to think that there had not been similar communications between Cos and Tyros and Eteocles and Sullius Maximus. Doubtless there would be coordinated actions.

[10:49] Myriam-alyah Spires (noirnyte.spires): Aside from the rivalries there occasions where a city can set itself apart for a seeming advantage. Such would be the City of Thana whose ‘outward’ appearance to ‘strangers’ were not the norm of hostility 

There was reputedly one exception to this generally prevalent attitude of hostility toward the stranger, the city of Tharna, which, according to rumor, was willing to engage in what on Gor might be accounted the adventure of hospitality and this was seemingly promoted for its own benefit.

[10:49] shar Silverclaw-Jacobson  (shar.boxen) is offline.

[10:49] Violet Thiessam (ayiranayo) is online.

[10:49] Zoe Corta (zoe.starling) is online.

[10:50] ꝀȺɌ (karisima.stein) entered chat range (19.34 m).

[10:50] Myriam-alyah Spires (noirnyte.spires): The Priest-Kings: The most powerful propagandists of all. (present company excepted and with no disrepect intended). They maintain order by cultivating fear and awe. Tales of their omnipotence — whether true or exaggerated — keep mortals obedient. Few dare to question them, because the myth of their power is as effective as the reality. 

It was rumored they used men as one might use pieces in a game, and when the piece had played its role it might be discarded, or perhaps, as in my case, removed from the board until it pleased the Priest-Kings to try yet another game.

[10:51] Myriam-alyah Spires (noirnyte.spires): Additionally, rumor advised that: 

 “The power of the Priest-Kings—rumored even to extend to the control of gravity—could lay waste cities, scatter populations, separate friends, tear lovers from one another's arms,”

[10:51] Hermes (prinzensaft): looks at the sky hoping no blue flame will descend on the speaker

[10:51] Myriam-alyah Spires (noirnyte.spires): Even this power was rumored to be challenged:

“Some of us”, said Menicius, “are familiar with the rumors, the frightening rumors, that there are forces on Gor, and elsewhere, who would challenge the power of the Priest-Kings themselves, rulers of Gor from time immemorial.” Men looked at one another, fearfully. Sometimes it seemed likely to me that the Priest-Kings were mythical entities.

[10:52] Mews Lowell (nadia.windlow) guesses the women only has first and second knowledge and lacks thirsth and fourth and this no knows better

[10:52] Tyan Cabot (tyancabot) is online.

[10:52] Myriam-alyah Spires (noirnyte.spires): Finally, the slaves also have an added benefit in disseminating information or information gathering: 

Slave girls, as is not the case with free women, may go almost anywhere in the city, gathering information, carrying messages. Few suspect that a collared wench may be on important business. Even if apprehended they seldom suffer more than a lashing while serving the pleasure of those who have apprehended them.

[10:52] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino) entered chat range (4.21 m).

[10:52] ﾚаяа (larabones) is online.

[10:53] Freya Hedwig (sparklingjewelri) is offline.

[10:53] Rea Stoneshield (reachtail) is offline.

[10:53] Myriam-alyah Spires (noirnyte.spires): Conjecture is everywhere in the Gorean Series.

[10:53] Victoria Forstander (evavalentino) arrives on caravan then she's escorted and brought over carefully so, keeping quiet about herself until she's within. "Tal fellow Goreans!"

[10:54] Myriam-alyah Spires (noirnyte.spires): Characters speculate constantly about the motives of the Priest-Kings or the Kurii. With so little direct knowledge, conjecture fills the gaps. 

Most, we conjectured, they feared a ruse, a display of pretended weakness that would lure an attack, then to be decimated. Moreover, I knew there were factions among Kurii. Doubtless they had individuals who were bolder, and those who were more cautious. The failure of the Torvaldsland probe might have had great impact in their councils. Perhaps a new party had come to power among them. Now, a new strategy, a new plan, was afoot.

[10:54] ᴀᴍᴀʀɪꜱꜱᴀ ᴅᴇᴠᴇʀᴇᴜx (lycaonia.siren) is online.

[10:54] ꝀȺɌ (karisima.stein)  arrives without fanfare, slipping quietly to the back of the room. With a subtle nod to those assembled, she murmurs, 'Tal,' her voice barely above a whisper, and waits for the debate to begin

[10:54] لąʍҽʂ βօʂաҽӀӀ (james.eton) is online.

[10:54] Myriam-alyah Spires (noirnyte.spires): John Norman himself uses conjecture as a philosophical tool. His characters often speculate about “natural order,” slavery, and hierarchy — presenting assumptions as if they were truths. 

It is likely that men, over the generations, have selected out for breeding, for marriage, women of certain sorts. Doubtless women are much more beautiful now than a hundred generations ago. Similarly, a woman who was particularly ugly, threatening, vicious, stupid, cruel, etc., would not be a desirable mate. No man can be blamed for not wishing to make his life miserable. Accordingly, statistically, he tends to select out women who are intelligent, loving and beautiful. Accordingly, men have, in effect, bred a certain kind of woman. Similarly, of course, in so far as choice has been theirs, women have tended to select out men who are, among other things intelligent, energetic, and strong. Few women, in their hearts, despite propaganda, really desire weak, feminine men. Such men, at any rate, are not those who figure

[10:54] Myriam-alyah Spires (noirnyte.spires): in their sexual fantasies. Goreans believe it is the nature of a man to own, that of a woman to be owned.

[10:55] Myriam-alyah Spires (noirnyte.spires): This is where “news” on Gor becomes interpretation rather than fact. 

A raid might be reported as a “heroic liberation” or a “barbaric invasion,” depending on who tells the story. 

Conjecture blurs into propaganda, shaping not just what people know, but what they believe. 

Following some two weeks of these discussions, which seemed to me at the time, at any rate, to be a waste of training time, Virginia Kent, who had feared men, had come to weigh seriously, if not to accept, certain of the theories of Flaminius, Phyllis to fight them and reject them as hateful slanders, and Elizabeth to regard them as an entertaining and stimulating hodgepodge of sophistry, reality, nonsense and propaganda.

[10:55] Myriam-alyah Spires (noirnyte.spires): So, what have we seen? 

Gossip builds social bonds but also undermines reputations. 

Rumor destabilizes and spreads fear. 

Propaganda consolidates power and directs loyalty. 

Conjecture fills the gaps, shaping belief when truth is absent.

[10:55] Hermes (prinzensaft): Jaw drops open seeing a blue flame which ain't one but takes the form of blue-clad Victoria Forstander

[10:56] Myriam-alyah Spires (noirnyte.spires): In conclusion, propaganda and rumors are both forms of communication that aim to influence people's beliefs or actions. While propaganda is usually more organized and deliberate, rumors are often spread informally and spontaneously. Propaganda is often created by those in positions of power or authority, while rumors are typically based on hearsay or speculation. Both propaganda and rumors can have a significant impact on public opinion and behavior, but they are perceived differently in terms of credibility, legitimacy, and control 

On Gor, as in our world, information is never neutral. It is a battlefield and one which the Editor of a Newspaper on Gor must be aware of.

[10:56] Myriam-alyah Spires (noirnyte.spires): - Thankyou for listening to me -

[10:57] Fogaban: Outstanding! Very well researched discourse Lady Myriam!

[10:57] Odette Atheria: Thank you, Myriam.  That was very thorough!

[10:57] Hermes (prinzensaft): Thank you well, Lady!

 [10:57] Fogaban: Outstanding! Very well researched discourse Lady Myriam!

[10:57] Odette Atheria: Thank you, Myriam.  That was very thorough!

[10:57] Hermes (prinzensaft): Thank you well, Lady!

[10:57]  Aυţυмη нαuι (autumnraineskye): Wonderfully presented

[10:57] Turjann applauds with a widening smile of appreciation

[10:57] Armand deFleur (armand.wayfarer) applauds to the good Lady for her presentation.

[10:57] Chesnakov of Ar (art.chesnokov) is online.

[10:57] Saku Takahashi 高橋 (mi.yuequi): applauds

[10:58] Sigfrid Avro (yexing) applaudit chaleureusement!!!!!!!!

[10:58] Abraham Jacobson (abrahamjacobs2): Up next  is the debate

[10:58] Davor O'Donnell (davoroflaura): applauds

[10:58] Astary Pendragon entered chat range (9.46 m).

[10:58] Myriam-alyah Spires (noirnyte.spires): ~most kind, and i hope that you continue to enjoy the seminar - Now it is time for our First Debate! :D

[10:58] Hermes (prinzensaft): gets up "Dear scribes, please follow me to the other terrace for the debate!"

[10:58] Abraham Jacobson (abrahamjacobs2): Hermes can you lead us over the the debate area

[10:59] Hermes (prinzensaft) shouts: waves and shouts "Along here please!"