[10:54] Melampus (godhet): We will start with the next presentation in 5 minutes.
[10:54] ƈɨʟɨӼ Ӽʊռ (xunfu): thanks
[10:54] Xunfu fr>en: Thanks
[10:57] Bea Lael (lifepath) smiled and gets some black scrolls ready to take notes about Astronomy. She was so excited that a low giggle of anticipation escaped her lips intermittently.
[11:00] Melampus (godhet) steps to the lectern and clears his throat.
[11:00] Melampus (godhet): First of all, I would like to apologize to my relative, Lady Sabayna, for not being able to give her presentation yesterday. She suddenly fell ill (with an upset stomach) and was unfortunately unable to get online.
[11:01] Melampus (godhet): Dear participants of the Scribe Summit 2025,
I would like to thank you very much for the opportunity to speak about one of humanity's oldest myths still in existence today: the myth of the Counter-Earth.
[11:02] Melampus (godhet): Today we'll go back to the origins of this myth and look at the man who, in a sense, invented the Counter-Earth. The first person to write about it was the Pythagorean Philolaus of Croton.
[11:04] Melampus (godhet): Whether it is the land of Bengodi in Boccaccio's Decamerone, the land of milk and honey in German carnival plays, the Utopia of Thomas More in the 16th century, the planet Sitara in the novels of Karl May, the planet Gor in the stories of John Norman or the planet Melancholia in the film of the same name by the Danish director Lars von Trier: all these are ideas of a counter-Earth that can be pleasant, threatening, mystically transfigured, adventurous, menacing or - as in the case of Melancholia - destructive.
[11:05] Melampus (godhet): The Pythagoreans' conception of the Counter-Earth, which their most important cosmologist, Philolaus, called Antichthone, was very far removed from all later adaptations. No desires at all can be projected onto Philolaus' Counter-Earth. For it is a highly inhospitable place, incapable of supporting life. It is not a place where one would want to stay or be able to live.
[11:06] Melampus (godhet): Nevertheless, Antichthone was an important inspiration for the planet Gor in John Norman's novels. This is most clearly evident in the priestly caste of Gor, the Initiates, as a member of which I speak to you today.
[11:07] Melampus (godhet): There are many similarities between a Pythagorean on Earth and an initiate on Gor. We live in complete asceticism and abstain entirely from sexual contact; indeed, we are not even allowed to brush a woman with our garments, let alone touch her.
[11:07] Melampus (godhet): The most obvious comparison is with regard to the diet and nutritional rules: they were adopted one-to-one from the Pythagoreans: no alcohol and no meat, which is normal for ascetics, but we don't eat beans either.
[11:08] Hermes (prinzensaft): wonders what he does with his Mul....
[11:08] Melampus (godhet): Even more important are the similarities in doctrine. Pythagoreans and initiates alike assume a divine creative power that created and ordered the world and the cosmos according to harmonious principles. Everything in the world is harmonious—music, nature, the universe—and is subject to strict numerical symbolism. If this harmony is disturbed, it arouses the displeasure of the divine power—in our case, the priest-kings.
[11:09] Melampus (godhet): But it is precisely in this religious aspect that the difference between Pythagoreans and initiates lies. The Pythagoreans see themselves as mathematicians and philosophers, while we initiates see ourselves as priests. While for the Pythagoreans, knowledge and epistemology about the world are central, for us, the cult of the priest-kings is central. We cultivate this cult, hold ceremonies, and place the priest-kings at the center of our worship. The initiates are primarily practitioners of a religion. But we also practice philosophy, mathematics, and cosmology.
[11:10] Melampus (godhet): === 2 Who was Philolaus of Croton? ===
[11:10] Melampus (godhet): We know very little about Philolaus's life. His life dates were between approximately 470 BC and approximately 385 BC; in any case, he was still alive in 388 BC. His life dates correspond almost exactly with those of Socrates. His birthplace is believed to have been the ancient city of Kroton, modern-day Crotone in southern Italy, exactly where the ball of the Italian boot lies.
[11:11] Melampus (godhet): Croton was a Greek city at the time and considered a center of the Pythagoreans. Philolaus may have been educated in the teachings of the Pythagoreans from his earliest youth. Whether he also encountered Pythagoras is unknown, but it is certainly conceivable.
[11:12] Melampus (godhet): Croton gained notoriety in Pythagorean history because, around the middle or second half of the 5th century, a massacre took place here, in which numerous Pythagoreans fell victim. Their meeting place was the house of a leading athlete named Milo. This house was set on fire as everyone gathered there. According to Olympiodorus, only two escaped the flames. One of them was Philolaus. The arson attack was the greatest catastrophe of his life. But it did not deter him from adhering to the teachings of Pythagoras
[11:13] Melampus (godhet): Philolaus left Croton and possibly went to Lucania, a region around Tarentum in southern Italy, where he joined another group of Pythagoreans. When persecution intensified there as well, he, like many others, went to Greece and lived in Thebes. There he taught. Perhaps he returned to southern Italy in his old age, where he is said to have met Plato toward the end of his life.
[11:14] Melampus (godhet): === 3 Sources and textual tradition on Philolaus' cosmology ===
[11:15] Melampus (godhet): The source situation is extremely difficult, as Philolaus's most important writings have not survived. His topics were natural philosophy, cosmology, and music theory. He wrote lengthy treatises on these topics, which unfortunately are no longer available. His cosmology must therefore be inferred from three other groups of sources:
[11:16] Melampus (godhet): Fragments of smaller writings, Testimonia 16–22, in which Philolaus discusses the cosmos.
Remarks by Aristotle and Plato, who reported on Philolaus.
The history of philosophy by Diogenes Laertius of Apollonia, who still had Philolaus' cosmological work at his disposal in the 3rd century AD.
[11:17] Melampus (godhet): Aristotle writes in "De Caelo," referring to Philolaus3
"The so-called Pythagoreans claim that fire is at the center of the universe, and that the earth is merely one of the stars that revolve around this fire. (...) They believe that the most venerable place belongs to the most venerable, and that fire is indeed more venerable than the earth."
[11:18] Melampus (godhet): From the multitude of sources and fragments, August Boekh in the 19th century, as well as Johan Ludvig Emil Dreyer and Carl A. Huffman in the 20th century, painstakingly reconstructed Philolaus' cosmology. I will refer to this research in the next section.
[11:18] Melampus (godhet) now turns to the diagram:
[11:19] Melampus (godhet): === 4 Philolaus' cosmological worldview ===
[11:20] Melampus (godhet): I've tried to reconstruct the results in a diagram. But please forgive me for making Philolaos' cosmic spheres look more like a cream cake with colorful chocolate candies in my graphic. This is entirely due to my limited artistic abilities.
[11:21] Hermes (prinzensaft): giggles
[11:21] Vαяη (varndavar.magic): chuckles
[11:21] Hermes (prinzensaft): Ask your Mul for help in the future, Mel!
[11:21] Tariq ibn Joshao al Samini (kitten.serpente): No problem, my Brother.
[11:21] Melampus (godhet): In addition, you have to imagine the whole thing as a sphere, just as the celestial bodies are spheres, but for simplicity I have drawn the cosmos on a flat surface.
[11:23] Melampus (godhet): Hestia is not the sun. The light and heat from Hestia would be too strong and would burn everything. Instead, I depicted the sun in yellow on the third orbit. Like the planets, the sun also orbits Hestia. It is a glass sphere that absorbs Hestia's light and heat and transmits it to Earth. Essentially, it acts like a giant game that travels through space.
[11:21] Melampus (godhet): Yes, a good idea, exalted Khan.
[11:21] Dallin (dallinpink) is offline.
[11:22] Bea Lael (lifepath) heard Hermes, "Your artistic work looks great"
[11:22] Melampus (godhet) points to the image:
[11:22] Hermes (prinzensaft): weighs his head .... "It should certainly appeal to kids"
[11:23] Melampus (godhet): When observing, we start from the center and move from there to the edges. In the center, I've depicted the fire in orange, which we already heard about in the quote from Aristotle. The Pythagoreans had numerous names for the central fire: "Throne of Zeus," "Mother of the Gods," "Altar," or "Hestia" (hearth). In their imagination, the entire universe evolved from this fire. The name Hestia is the most common, so I call the central fire Hestia.
[11:23] Rea Stoneshield (reachtail) is offline.
[11:24] Melampus (godhet): a giant mirror, I wanted to say.
[11:25] Melampus (godhet): Using Earth as an example, which can be seen in blue on the second orbit, I've indicated Hestia's reflection with an orange and a yellow ray. Additional yellow rays could also be used to connect the other planets to the sun, as it distributes light throughout the cosmos.
[11:25] Vαяη (varndavar.magic): listens, smiling pleasantly.
[11:26] Melampus (godhet): The moon, which I've depicted in purple, revolves around the Earth in an orbit. But how can the Earth and the moon be protected from the direct influence of Hestia? This is precisely where the counter-Earth comes into play. The Pythagoreans called it Antichthone, which literally means "opposite pole." Because Antichthone lies permanently opposite the Earth's South Pole.
[11:27] Melampus (godhet): Thus, according to Philolaus, Antichthone functions as a protective shield for the Earth. It is exposed to intense heat. Therefore, I have marked Antichthone in black on the first orbit. Because no life exists there; everything is burned. The surface of Antichthone is completely covered with hot ash.
[11:28] Melampus (godhet): Even on Earth, according to Philolaus, the effect of Hestia can be felt, for the closer one gets to the South Pole, the hotter it becomes. This can be seen in people's skin: the further south they live, the blacker and more burnt their skin is. The South Pole must therefore be an unbearably hot place. It always faces Hestia, for the Earth rotates once on its axis in its orbit.
[11:29] Melampus (godhet): The sun, however, offers no explanation for the continuously increasing heat in the south. Therefore, according to Philolaus, the sun cannot be Hestia.
[11:30] Melampus (godhet): According to Philolaus, the sole reason we can't see the Counter-Earth is that the heat prevents us from traveling to the areas from which Antichthone could be seen. We would burn up at the South Pole.
[11:30] Melampus (godhet): Outside Antichthon, Earth, the Moon, and the Sun orbit the other planets. There are five of them, but Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto hadn't yet been discovered at that time.
[11:31] Melampus (godhet): Mercury orbits in the fourth orbit, which I depicted in mint; Venus in the fifth orbit is green; Mars in the sixth is red; Jupiter in the seventh is brown; and Saturn in the eighth is pink. (The colors don't mean anything; I just used them for differentiation.)
[11:32] Melampus (godhet): Outside the orbits, a dark blue circle can be seen. This is the zone of fixed stars surrounding the spheres of the planets.
[11:33] Melampus (godhet): The background of the graphic is orange, because beyond the zone of fixed stars burns the eternal fire of space. As mentioned, the cosmos must be imagined as a sphere, and this sphere is located in a sea of fire, for in the eyes of the Pythagoreans, fire was the most venerable thing of all.
[11:33] Divine (amalie.sable) is offline.
[11:34] Melampus (godhet): With this cosmological model, Philolaus remained virtually without successor. Later Pythagoreans of the 4th century BC, such as Hicetas and Ecphantus (both in Syracuse, Sicily), as well as Heraclides Ponticus in Athens, adopted only partial aspects. Antichthones are no longer mentioned in any of the three. They found the assumption that the Earth is a moving celestial body revolving around a central star particularly interesting.
[11:34] Melampus (godhet) steps back to his first place.
[11:35] Melampus (godhet): However, this assumption was soon put aside when the geocentric worldview of Aristarchus of Samos prevailed, which was to be decisive for the rest of antiquity and the Middle Ages.
[11:35] Melampus (godhet): It wasn't until the 15th century, with Nicolaus Copernicus, and in the early modern period with Galileo Galilei and Isaac Newton, that Philolaus's worldview was revived. Philolaus was the first to point the way toward a heliocentric worldview and inspired Copernicus, Galileo, and Newton.
[11:36] Melampus (godhet): === 5 Meaning and Interpretation ===
[11:37] Melampus (godhet): What sense did it make to invent Hestia and Antichthone, two celestial bodies that could not be perceived at all on Earth?
[11:37] Melampus (godhet): Several aspects play a role here, two of which I would like to highlight:
The veneration of fire as the most venerable of all
The pursuit of a harmony reflected in nature, music, and the cosmos
[11:38] Melampus (godhet): Fire was central to the Pythagoreans' beliefs. Everything emanates from it and returns to it. The sun couldn't serve this purpose, as it was first in the east, then in the south, and finally in the west. However, the observation that it gets hotter the further south it goes led Philolaus to assume that there must be a large, heat-generating source in that direction.
[11:39] Melampus (godhet): The other is the pursuit of harmony. Harmony is expressed in numbers. The Pythagoreans were important mathematicians. One tenet of their teaching was: "Numbers, as their laws, underlie the appearance of things." According to their conception, the heavens and the cosmos were a harmony determined by certain laws and numerical relationships.
[11:39] Melampus (godhet): The Pythagoreans started with music. They discovered the law that there is a constant relationship between pitch and string length, which can be expressed numerically.
[11:40] Melampus (godhet): Philolaus applied this law to the phenomena of the heavens and the entire cosmos after observing a regularity in the movements of the celestial bodies. He compared the planets to the seven strings of the heptachord. For the planets, too, make music: the music of the spheres, which corresponds to earthly music.
[11:41] Tariq ibn Joshao al Samini (kitten.serpente): Nods
[11:41] Melampus (godhet): But what do you do if you only have six planets—Earth, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn? Quite simply, you invent a seventh—Antichthon.
[11:41] Melampus (godhet): A major role was played by the Pythagoreans’ assignment of symbolic meaning to numbers:
[11:42] Melampus (godhet): The number 1 is self-contained, unchanging. It is the symbol of God.
The number 2 is the other, the symbol of difference. 1 and 2 behave as opposites.
The number 3 is the sum of 1 and 2: the symbol of synthesis, of the whole, of connection.
The number 4 is the sacred root of the world, the primordial symbol of proportionality. There are four seasons, four elements, four bodily humors, and four cardinal directions.
[11:43] Melampus (godhet): Adding the cardinal numbers 1, 2, 3, and 4 gives the number 10. 10, the sum of all cardinal numbers, is a sacred number. Therefore, Philolaus searched not only for the seventh planet, but also for the tenth celestial body.
[11:43] Melampus (godhet): If we add up the celestial bodies within the fixed star zone, we have ten: Hestia, the Sun, Antichthone, the Earth, the Moon, and the five remaining planets. Only with ten large celestial bodies can the cosmos be harmonious.
[11:44] Melampus (godhet): The harmony of the cosmos and the harmony of music are supposed to correspond to the harmony of the soul. Therefore, the aforementioned rules regarding nutrition, diet, and abstinence exist, which we initiates have adopted from the Pythagoreans.
[11:45] Melampus (godhet): Of course, our worldview differs considerably from that of the Pythagoreans. La Torvis, the sun, is our central fire, and it is mild enough to allow everything to live and flourish. Consequently, in our worldview, the counter-earth is located somewhere entirely different in the cosmos than where Philolaus supposed it to be. Thank the Priest-Kings for that, because we live here.
[11:46] Melampus (godhet): Thank you for your attention and I am happy to answer any questions you may have.
[11:46] Tariq ibn Joshao al Samini (kitten.serpente): raises hand
[11:46] Melampus (godhet): Yes, my brother.
[11:46] Tariq ibn Joshao al Samini (kitten.serpente): I would like to note that for any of you would find this cosmology interesting, C.S. Lewis also wrote about it in modern times, in his book _The Discarded Image_ and his fiction book, the third volume in his space trilogy, titled _That Hideous Strength_ I will say I love that novel, and reread it frequently.
[11:48] Kiki Silverclaw-Jacobson (elphaba.jinxing) is offline.
[11:49] Melampus (godhet): Oh yes, that's another example of Philolaus's lasting impact. Although I must confess, I haven't read anything by Lewis yet. Thanks for the tip, my brother, I'll do that soon.
[11:49] Bea Lael (lifepath) Raises her hand
[11:49] Melampus (godhet): Yes, Lady?
[11:50] Bea Lael (lifepath) stands up and smiled. "Thank you for your expertise on all of this. It is very intriguing and exciting to learn about. There is one thing I would like to comment on and I believe maybe their assessments of those that are further south on Earth, having used the term 'burnt skin,' would indicate that the person is suffering or has suffered from some painful burn by fire; which therefore caused their skin to painfully be darker. Having darker skin does not mean the person's skin should be referred to as 'burnt' as it is not burnt and it is not painful, but merely darker due to centuries of migration of various human groups from one area to another. Those with lighter skin tones have lesser melanin production while those with darker skin tones have higher rates of melanin; which causes a biological reaction once the sun touches it, causing the skin to be darker and that melanin is then passed down to their off spring. That is to say that if that darker person decides to mate with one of dark skin as well.
[11:50] Bea Lael (lifepath): However, if that darker person mates with a person of a paler complexion, then the off spring will usually be a mixture, a blend of those different skin tones. Thank you for your time. That is all. Thank you." sits back down
[11:54] Melampus (godhet): Thank you for this important addition, Lady. Of course, it's as you've stated. But we have to go back to the late 5th century. That's roughly the time of Hippocrates. Medicine was in its infancy back then, and Philolaus had no other explanation for the increasing pigmentation the further south one goes.
[11:54] Jerome (wolf.toman): may I leave, my Khan?
[11:55] Melampus (godhet): This is a good example of how reason and supposed logic can trip you up.
[11:55] Hermes (prinzensaft) shouts: applauds "that was quite interesting, blessed one! I've never seen a model of the solar system further from the reality! In my view you can see here the dangers of non-empirical science - we have to trust our observations more than our fantasies - that is exactly why we set up such a big observatory on the top of the House of Wisdom. Praise to the Priest-Kings that they at least allow us these instruments!"
[11:55] Hermes (prinzensaft): oh sorry I am too exalted... I shouldn't shout
[11:55] Jerome (wolf.toman): *smiles
[11:55] Hermes (prinzensaft): yes boy you may leave...
[11:55] Jerome (wolf.toman): thanks my Khan
[11:56] Jerome (wolf.toman): I wish you all a good night, my Khan, Masters and Mistresses
[11:57] Tariq ibn Joshao al Samini (kitten.serpente): I will return.
[11:58] Hermes (prinzensaft): but maybe you disagree on that point, blessed one?
[11:58] Freya Hedwig (sparklingjewelri) is online.
[11:58] Hermes (prinzensaft): would that be one point on which the scribes and the initiates diverge fundamentally?
[11:58] Melampus (godhet) laughs: "Yes, the same thing was said by Arpad Szabo, the famous Hungarian classical philologist, who simply called Philolaus a fantasist. In Philolaus's defense, however, I must say that he at least showed the way to a heliocentric worldview. Even if his model certainly cannot be considered a heliocentric worldview. After all, he was the first, and for a long time almost the only, person to see the Earth in motion."
[11:59] Bea Lael (lifepath) nods to Jerome and wished him a good night as well
[12:00] Vαяη (varndavar.magic): listens quietly, dropping his right hand into the girls hair by him, and twisting and pressing his fingers against her scalp.
[12:01] Hermes (prinzensaft): Was there not another Greek astronomer... Aristo... something who defended a heliocentric model?
[12:02] Tove Kailiauk-Skovgard (noria.lavender) is online.
[12:04] Melampus (godhet): The later Pythagoreans, Hiketas and Ekphantos (both in Syracuse, Sicily), as well as Heraclides Ponticus in Athens. They were a bit closer because they omitted Hestia and Antichthone. But still not exact. Hicetas, for example, believed, following Cicero's testimony, that the Earth is the only thing in the cosmos that moves.
[12:05] Hermes (prinzensaft): I need to look him up
[12:05] Hermes (prinzensaft): Aristo.... Hypatia of the Neoplatonic schook in Alexandria pursued his research
[12:06] Hermes (prinzensaft): Aristarchos!
[12:07] Hermes (prinzensaft): Aristarchos of Samos, 3rd century BCE!
[12:08] Melampus (godhet): You are meaning Aristarch von Samos? He founded the geocentric worldview, which would endure for a long time and was also advocated by the Aristotelians. Today we know it as the Ptolemaic worldview because Ptolemy described it comprehensively.
[12:09] Hermes (prinzensaft): No no he defended a heliocentrric model!
[12:10] Vulcan Arian (lordmarshall) is offline.
[12:11] Hermes (prinzensaft): I know for sure, and the Neoplatonics followed him in part, at least the renowned Hypatia of Alexandria, one of the few heads of the ancient schools who was a woman
[12:11] Hermes (prinzensaft): But then, of course Plato and the neoplatonists walked in the footsteps of the Pythagoreens
[12:12] Melampus (godhet): This discussion would certainly go too far here, but as Ptolemy described, Aristarchus' observation of the 87-degree angle of the sun at the solstice led to the geocentric worldview. Ptolemy based it on this.
[12:13] Vulcan Arian (lordmarshall) is online.
[12:13] Lysander Tyran is offline.
[12:14] Hermes (prinzensaft): Ahhh Ptolemy, distractor of Aristarchos' achievements bending it to his own geocentric nonsense!
[12:16] Melampus (godhet) nods: "Aristarchus' work is lost, and basically we only know what Ptolemy extracted for himself."
[12:16] Atiya Rowan De'Ulrick (isidore33) is offline.
[12:16] Hermes (prinzensaft): But yes let us discuss this topic in private! people deserve a break before my talk on the moons coming up in 45 ehn!
[12:16] Melampus (godhet): Yes, we will meet us here again in 45 Minutes.
[12:17] Davor O'Donnell (davoroflaura): Thank you for this interesting insight.
